nm5464: Claire er and er Jenny er and Emma er okay er cheers er and with that remark i'm just going to have a little word with you before we get started this is you know this let me explain what this is about is we will have a kind of record for the department of the seminar which will be interesting for us but they're making a C-D-rom for the benefit of overseas students who may not er may not be used to actually working with seminars and er and they'll only use are likely to use er but they're doing a number of them across the university alright and they'll probably only use just a few snippets er and the thing that i would say is we'll just do our normal seminar okay and just completely ignore it er you can't completely ignore it but er we will operate as normal and not actually worry about it at all and er and it will be beneficial to over-, to overseas students who might want to see what we do at Warwick and to see what what they're letting themselves in for [laughter] okay er do you want to say something Tim om5465: yeah well i think namex explained everything there er the only thing i would like to do assuming that you have no questions is to just ask for your permission er to record you and and ask at this point as well that if anybody isn't happy about being filmed could you just let me know now er i'll try and avoid filming you or i certainly will cut you out in the editing process er has anyone any problems or are you all happy [laughter] silence is content er yeah er okay i'll take that that everybody's happy thank you very much okay you can go ahead nm5464: okay er so i can just om5465: go ahead just ignore me we may have to change the tape or something like that er but i'll try not to make any noise nm5464: the first right hi hello everybody er and first of all er you've got the handout for next term and you know that we'll be carrying on as normal er hiya er come on in Beverley er over there sf5467: am i okay here nm5464: yeah sure yeah and er we're ignoring them we don't know why they're here and what they're doing but we're ignoring them er and you've got the handout for next term er unfortunately i won't be i won't be taking the seminar but er but er Becky Alfred will be will be taking the seminar she's very good and she's er a PhD student she's taught the course before and she's doing research into er art therapy with er with women who've had breast cancer surgery so she's looking very much about the kind of holistic side of medicine and what and and how mind influences emotions influence health so er i'm sure i'm sure you'll find her very good i will be doing as i said some lectures and i'll be back in term three to do to do revision er you it's not a deliberate mistake weeks you see that what we're do in the week weeks after we come back is that we're looking at specific topics around the social causes of ill health i meant in the se-, the last part of the term we look at we look at alternatives in practice but there is a mistake in that the handout for week twelve should not be the politics of health food and health it should be coronary heart disease so we're going to have to give you a supplementary handout on that everything else is is correct though okay er but before i mean i'm not going to do a formal evaluation hi Jane sf5468: hi nm5464: i'm not going to do a formal evaluation but i just want you to know er i mean how i mean can we just go round and see how how have you found it this term er has it been okay what have you got out of the course sm5466: good nm5464: in what kinds of ways sm5466: informative er nm5464: okay er Helen how have you found it sf5469: we've covered quite a lot we've covered quite a lot of what we did last year so nm5464: in what kinds of things sf5469: well all of this term really nm5464: right sf5469: we've gone over lots of things nm5464: okay er just anybody else er anybody else er wha-, in terms of anything you want to say about the content er anybody sf5473: i found the seminars useful rather than someone standing there i find it more beneficial to do it the way we do it er and nm5464: right sf5474: and the handouts are really helpful it can prepare us when we get back nm5464: pardon sf5474: you can refer to it when you get back nm5464: right er yeah i've only just learned how to do these PowerPoint [laughter] er it's a shame i couldn't start er but these are really useful sm5466: they're readable now nm5464: they're becoming readable as well sm5466: the size increases slowly as we progress nm5464: right so you're finding the seminars useful er su: yeah nm5464: and a chance for discussion you know we're quite a big group but in small group discussions you find there's enough space su: yeah nm5464: okay and i'm beginning to remember some of the names anybody else wants to add about the course so far we're half way through and so on is it all clear are you clear where we're going sm5466: there was one thing i wanted to say was you know the class discussion points nm5464: yeah sm5466: now i took them as being like seminar discussion points nm5464: yes sm5466: so obviously cause obviously we've varied that nm5464: right they are they are often the issues that we'll be looking at in the seminars but er i do and also they're the key issues around the topic so if you're doing an an essay and some of you owe me essays don't you after today i want either an essay or an excuse from you please so er but if you're doing essay it will be useful but i have actually i have and and if you read around those for the seminars that will be very good but often in the seminars i like to kind of if you like take it a bit bit further particularly using the handouts but is that a problem or sm5466: it has been once or twice nm5464: once or twice is sort of sm5466: yeah but not in general nm5464: okay okay any other issues before we kick off okay right unemployment and health er as you as you as you know what we're trying to say in the lecture was that it's a contro-, there's a controversial issue about what what if any link there is between unemployment and ill health and if there is one what's the nature of it and what the policy implications are so what i'd like us to do today is to kin-, try and work out those kinds of issues right when i divide you up into groups hopefully if possible using some of these have you all got these gree-, these overheads which have got some tables on as well sf5474: i wasn't in one of the lectures so can i have a copy nm5464: okay i will i have got a spare right so if you can draw on your reading but also if possible on the table as well in order in terms of your discussion and if you remember one of the debates was er what does er what does what does er what what is the rela-, what is the relation is unemployment a cause of ill health or is it that people are unemployed are more likely to people who are who have ill health are more likely to be unemployed is there a ca-, ca-, causation effect that unemployment causes ill health or is there a selection effect that er that unhealthy people become unemployed so what i want you to do first of all is to look at some of the evidence for that and if i think you'll find the the key tables to look at are the table by Morris er the table by abou- , about Barkley about Barkley and Erringen and the longitudinal study of mortality so you've got those three tables in your hand now and you might know it you might know people who've been unemployed or been employed yourself or what so think out what extent is selection and an-, or is it causation how much is the ill health effects of unemployment a process of selection that is unhealthy beco-, people become ill and have more chance to die or how much is it causation unemployment actually causes ill health right so that's the first question i want to look at er when i divide you into groups second question is if to the extent that there is a causal relationship what is its nature is it due to the fact that the Jehovah thesis that people feel this terrible loss of a job it's not the money but it's the the experience of not being in a job dislocated from society and so on er or is it actually is the un-, is the ill health associated with unemployment is it due to lifestyle is it people have enough to live on but they're choosing bu-, but they're but they have an unhealthy lifestyle or is it the fact that there are material aspects of unemployment poverty er that are linked to other forms of disadvantage that aren't just associated with unemployed people so if you could think about have you all got those questions so those kind of thi-, you might want to if you've finished those are complicated questions but if you then want to go on to about the policy implications of what that would be really good as well okay now when you're looking at the second one i think you'll find that some of the other tables are quite useful with obviously the table about Jehovah's approach which i call Dirkheimian because Dirkheim was the person who thought that everybody needed a job that a job gave people status and position in society whereas if you look at the the the Friar model which is about poverty it's more of a Marxian notion about material disadvantage and linked to other forms of disadvantage in society so what's the evidence for these these these approaches and when you've sorted out whether it's selection or causation when you've sorted out this issue about is it people have enough money but they choose the wrong lifestyles when you've sorted out er what it is whether it's the loss of a job or the actual material circumstances of unemployment think about some perhaps some of the policy implications okay and let's divide how many have we got the numbers are a bit down this week because it's the Christmas week but there are or other reasons as well i don't know but two four four five do you want a group of four and a group of six is that about is that okay or is that would you like groups of three which would be best one group su: split it down the middle nm5464: pardon su: straight it down the middle nm5464: split it down the middle into two groups okay sm5466: five and four five and five no six nm5464: two four six two four five so yeah so split down into a group of six and a group of five and then shift the furniture around and er everyone clear on their brief i'll give you about fifteen minutes or so and then we'll open it up for discussion and please don't feel restricted to this evidence on the on the handout but it might be if you can in terms of those answers if you can refer once a number of occasions to this evidence it would be really good okay good luck see you in about fifteen minutes any more questions sf5475: if you do the tendency is to rather than to go out and try and find another job to go out and perhaps you haven't you know this whole thinking where you start sit at home start smoking more you know start taking life not very seriously and watching telly you know i i must get another job sf5471: yeah i guess also its depending on what job you've got to determine i think if you're a teacher or something like that you know you're investing in your children's education and that's your priority sm5466: and then and job security is less than you so obviously you know you don't always think whether you're living with people who are obviously in the same you may be working but you're you're never that secure yeah i know yeah yeah job security in a way that work is you never feel that your job is never that but you've got a job sf5470: yeah and security sm5466: you talk sf5474: so that's saying that it probably causes and not section sf5470: and that moves in to sf5469: if you come from a really industrial background there's more chance of you being unemployed because you know an accident at work or something else sm5466: psychological and physical well if you consider then on the other hand had an emergency within the same society can reduce your social standing in that society because you no longer conform to which you should be working so when you're not working you feel socially excluded sf5470: yeah okay sm5466: yeah sf5470: yeah sm5466: yeah the thing about the economy just like i've said before about you know and belonging and not belonging to society like you're saying even amongst certain areas where you have people who are working which may be renowned for that some people are working and some people are not working so you have this up an down the social integration even within in a small area so that could cause lot's of sorts of social problems sf5474: basically it's both isn't it but i think you're right when you said its more psychological sm5466: yeah sf5474: yeah sm5466: more physical su: selection su: so we're talking like we're talking disability here sf5471: you know you can you kind of don't i mean a couple of days each week and i have something else every single day just goes into a blur each week i can't cope most of the time sf5475: you were saying this morning about sitting in front of the television and smoking instead of sleeping you know i do that all of the time but you're probably not like cause i get used to having the attitude of actually not getting up in the morning at all just standing there whereas you've got some sort of i'm going to work i'm going to do this you have got some kind of structure you know you know when it's quiet and you're lying in the morning there you say what am i going to do today i'm so bored and everything's a bit pants and then you you know even though you know and even though you may not like going to work you know at least you've got something well i do go to work but it's really not bad once you get there and you have not just whole you know this every day organized life you've got different people to talk to and you know so once you get there it's not that bad and you actually feel quite good at the end of the day whereas if i stay in bed all day if i stay in bed all day what use am i so you do start to get in this really like it's like in the morning yeah yeah and it's just mind of matter you know sf5476: it's boring boring telly all day long sf5475: but remember when you used to take days off school when you weren't really all that ill and then about midday you start to think ah i wish i was at school with my mates so i'd have something to do and you just end up vegetating in your pyjamas all day for the second part of we're just on the second part not the first one the second part house calls sf5471: no yeah it's like tomorrow yeah and consulting it's not are job to do that it's about how to keep up with that that's one of the most stressful jobs is working on the exchange stock exchange sf5475: Willy Wonkers [laughter] sf5475: quite true but yeah it does get you know he's only a first year graduate from sorry first year graduate from here and you you know never had a home in his life and then goes to London and he has this you know stock exchange what the hell am i going to do it's like work can make you ill even if it's a very good job cause sf5471: making baskets sf5474: i wake up and sit there and have time to go sm5466: people in this society that is the main reason or one of the main reasons why we work to give our families what they require to live every day it's the same the same London yeah sorry if you can't remember you're not informing yeah that's right you're not informing sm5466: saying as lifestyle and then its you psychological welbeing it's a complex situation yeah you can throw away yes nm5464: should i give you a couple of more minutes another four minutes okay i'll be back in four minutes sf5475: on the contract you signed away your rights to have a thirty-seven hour week you really don't have to work more than that so sf5476: on another job sf5475: yeah sf5471: yeah sf5476: you're still paid the same wage when you do that twenty hours extra but you're fired when you don't do it sf5471: my dad's always in through the weekends have you seen that advert its for Red Bull or something and it's stimulating and there's a guy and he er goes out of a nice house and then he goes into work at about three in the morning or something like that this time falls asleep on his head and the boss comes in and su: that's really good sf5471: it's seen as a good thing talk about your wages because helps talk about your wages nm5464: are we mostly finished are we alright okay er from here so the the first question that you're looking in the extent to which that unemployment was actually the result of ill health or a cause of of ill health how did you get on with that question what did you decide anyone in this group to start with su: i thought it was a bit of both i couldn't really come to any sort of i don't think anybody was on one side or the other nm5464: right what evidence did you bring on that might be what about look at the selection factor what other evidence is there unemployed people that ill health families could become the highlight of unemployment sf5471: well we used examples of people if you're ill say you're a teacher and you're constantly ill than you're obviously putting that child's education you know in danger and if they're looking at like kicking someone off cause they've got too many teacher they always have that than you're name's going to come up first because you have been in to the point where you're seen as unreliable because you know despite the sort of sick thing nm5464: is there a lot of stress amongst teachers or sf5471: i'd say there was nm5464: right so that's a good so let's follow that example through because that's actually a good one that's a white collar job which cause there's a lot of stress in teaching so so people so you think i might be increasing as well with vulnerability to the unemployment sf5471: yeah yeah cause obviously if you've got a teacher who turns up every single day as in teaching five days a week and there's another teacher who is off a couple of days who might have like a really bad asthma attack might be three strikes on a Sunday night not until a Tuesday and that happens sort of every other week or whatever than their name's their going to be they're going to have a black mark next to their name and their going to be brought up when it comes to nm5464: so is it is it possible though the people are more likely to be selective in a in a recession or when they are more people unemployed not necessarily what about if the economy is buoyant and or that they're short staffed do you think it's less likely that these people would be unemployed what would you think about here Sandy you're nodding sf5470: i think that if we sort of came to that conclusion that yes if er i-, i- , if you're ill or you're more sick more stressed or what have you than maybe you're going to be the first to either not to get promotion or be first to go when things happen nm5464: so i'm going to quickly push what we might if you're at best teacher to maybe might choose to to opt for disability or or is it possible to hear people say that they've had enough that they've Melanie your nodding sf5472: mm no i was just trying i was going to say before that companies tend to see you as a liability don't they if you they're paying you more money for you being sick than actually turning up to work and they're more likely to want to get rid of you nm5464: or encourage you to get on take a retirement or something sf5472: yeah nm5464: but who does it affect most do you think that it affect is more likely to affect people at the top of the scale or the or the does ill health more affect people unemployment ill health more affect people at the bottom of the social scale sf5475: i think it's more likely that they people who are working past background can can become more fatalistic quickly like say say you're middle class and you become ill the you're general outlook on things is i want to get better and get back to work and working class is is there's a lot more tendency to get a lot out of work i'm going to get benefits i'm going to start smoking and i'm going to start watching daytime television more and more and than you're bringing it on yourself even if the original cause isn't you know you may let it be known but i think workers find it hard to get out of that rut and you know having sick people being there nm5464: so you're saying there could be some cultural more than as well as structural what do you what do you think about that upon that sf5470: i was just thinking about the topic before there was something in the paper last night in about Birmingham City Council nm5464: yeah sf5470: and their high sick rates particularly in social services that well any sort group of people with people jobs in housing and they started sending people out to visit people who were sick but it's only into departments like the housing the manual workers whereas presumably someone with a sort of principle office task isn't quite so likely to take a home visit nm5464: i think this is rather isn't it actually if you have a middle class occupation you can carry on as or you're more likely to be able to carry on as without being made redundant you're less likely to habit if you're middle class where as if you're low on the social scale you're more at risk of unemployment anyway and perhaps it is a physical ill health that makes it hard for you to do your job but you also may be subjected to surveillance is what you're saying but so there is enough there is but well when if you're retired it's not necessarily bad for your health i mean if you're doing a stressful job it may have what affect do you know any retired teachers ss: mm yes nm5464: and how are they finding their they find that their worse off their health is worse now as well sf5475: they're seem to be much better nm5464: so alright so it can have a goo-, so retirement for ill health needn't necessarily perhaps er sf5471: yeah i think also within within illness itself there might be sort of distinctions because middle class people you could say are more likely to be sufferers you could say of something like M-E which isn't as highly recognized as say an early stroke or you know someone something which is seen much more as a working class disease and so there might be there might be sort of selection within that you know nm5464: mm mm yeah okay so we're going okay Dale yeah sm5466: i was going to say that if you're looking at the middle class working class i think that the thing that you have to consider the fact that if you look at working class and a person is ill and the tenant is like okay yeah i'll go on sick for a couple of weeks or whatever and hang it out as long as i can that he's only got to fall back on where as in a middle class job there's generally you've got company pensions so therefore if you go to the the grounded area of the scale you've got middle class working class man right he's been knocked out of he's got nothing other than state handouts whereas the working class man has got pensions et cetera yeah it's it's all in place there's a big difference between the two so therefore i would argue that the working class man would wish to get back in the groove as soon as possible to maintain their material you know their standing you know nm5464: on the whole there appears to be evidence you saw didn't in those statistics about what unemployment and what appears to low there's a huge number of people who have taken early retirement you know or gone off sick far after they get to fifty and what they're saying is is quite true is that the middle class and you you often may go retire early at sixty especially if if you're a kind of chair of ground travel or something and can take a nice handshake wouldn't you than that's okay but if you're working class is actually you lose a lot of income and many instances you have been forced early retirement so there's a lot what we start to talk about there is a lot of complexity isn't there around these kind of issues but there is that's the selection factor what about causation is there evidence that unemployment has a direct cau-, causal effect on ill health on mortality and it what did you found there sf5475: you could look at the amount of industrial accident accidents that there were it's not necessarily people being careless it's actually the company that puts a can in-, place inserts regulations and things so in that case unemployment sorry being employed is definitely hazardous to your health nm5464: right so the danger that you're saying unemployment is hazardous to your health is if we ignore the whole effect of work hazard but is there is there is there is there actually evidence that actually being unemployed are you familiar with this i gave you or from what you know or maybe you've known people who are unemployed as well so you can bring in both experiential and a kind of social science evidence here but actually unemployment has a is a causal link to early mortality amongst people that are at retirement age Sandy your nodding sf5470: is it Morris nm5464: which what are you looking at sf5470: the Morris nm5464: the Morris study what does that tell you anything that's the possible employment of mortality of men age forty to fifty-nine that table on on here sf5470: that's quite a significant statistic really i'm appalled nm5464: yeah so talk us through t sf5470: i was going to go off in another direction and say that what one of the things we discussed was that it actually it started before the unemployment it was this insecurity in of of you know when you still have a job that that's when things nm5464: so that's not when you've just become unemployed what kinds of effects does it have on people sf5470: psychological to begin with the stress and everything that works with physical nm5464: what do people worry about when before that am i being redundant or what kinds of things do people worry about sf5471: finances is one of the big ones nm5464: yes anything else sf5471: its respect if you're living in a certain neighbourhood and you lose your job and then you have downsize in house downsize your car your children have to stop going to private school nm5464: so there's about fears about social status as well as sf5471: yeah like a lot of people wouldn't tell their spouses when you know the risk of being unemployed being unemployed nm5464: there is a lot of evidence that actually ill health affects start before before redundancy and actually affect how you how you you sm5466: job security nm5464: yeah but is that objective because often what they ask you what would you rate your health as fair bad or good your mental health as fair bad are good how you know ju-, just on the basis of that evidence would you say that's acceptable amount in terms of people's health status that kind of objective evidence is that objective evidence that is a real indication of health do you think sm5466: no it can vary from day to day i think nm5464: pardon sm5466: it varies nm5464: but what kinds of things would you take as evidence of poor mental health for example what kinds of things sf5471: sleeping nm5464: right yeah th-, that's always when i'm feeling stressed is when i can wake up in the middle of the night worrying about what how i haven't marked your essays what are we going to do when i come into seminar so sleep so sleep disturbance anything else sf5475: about dying nm5464: dying that can actually be stress yeah what else what else about dying symptoms around fear gastric disturbance and things like that there is a lot of evidence that particularly impacts around peoples mental health the other thing i was trying to get at was that if you rate there is a lot of evidence as suggested in the lecture but if you rate yourself it's not an objective measure in terms of a psychiatrist decides your mentally healthy or fairly healthy or poor but if you rate accor-, according to how you rate yourself people who rate themselves as having poor mental health they have a much higher risk of subsequent mortality within five years so this is what partly the argument is there's quite a correspondence between the two in fact that even though it's subjective so what is it so so people are worried before hand what about later mortality what's the evidence later of mortality and the risk of unemployment sm5466: well the government themselves in saving lives they state that people who work endure better physical mental health than those that don't work the unemployed increase the risk of illness and of premature death a middle aged man who loses his job is twice as likely to die in the next five years as a man who remained in employ nm5464: yup is that surprising or shocking sm5466: not really nm5464: what about is this is this surprising this how if we look at the if we look at the facts have a look again at this Morris how much can you say that some of that might be due to a selection effect of sickness and how much of that is an independent look at that table and see if if anyone can tell me whether how much of that excess mortality excess of dying associated with unemployment how much of that linked of sickness or how much of that is likely to be directly caused by unemployment Sandy started to talk but you chickened out didn't you sf5470: i did nm5464: so i won't pick on you again but here's a key table it's a group of men who between age forty to fifty-nine and it traces them through and sees how many you know according to their employment experience how many are alive or dead after a certain period and also tries to check how many of them are sick or or not so what would you take from that table would anyone be brave enough to sm5466: well they argue to argue that those who are unemployed have got more chance at dying through cancer or a coronary heart disease than those who do work nm5464: right that's the first thing that you can conclude from there's a higher risk there's a higher risk if you're unemployed that after a certain period five years or so of dying from un-, er if you're unemployed than if you're in employment everyone agree with that yeah anything else to add to it though from the table sm5466: well don't you think the sample size is nm5464: well the sample size is interesting right we'll come back to that but what but is it different groups higher risks and why and what you're concluding from that who has the highest risks amongst the unemployed and who has sf5474: its particularly the retired nm5464: yeah they have so people who retire early have a higher rate of death than most people who are actually unemployed sm5466: even if they don't have illness nm5464: even if they're not even if they're not if they didn't retire because of illness but what about illness what does that do if you have illness and unemployment together sm5466: the highest risk nm5464: yeah so what does that tell you about selection and causation is the sort of the central issue sm5466: it brings it all nm5464: which is what sm5466: well it does i think that they going on that they have to you have to stand up back up the selection nm5464: yes sm5466: because you're not going to walk into a job if you don't if there's someone physically fit next to you i think you said in the lecture a few years ago if you wore glasses you were less likely to not get a job as someone who didn't nm5464: yeah what this study is often used to is to is to s-, suggest is that there is an independent sickness and selection there is a direct cause and relationship between unemployment and mortality because athough if you're sick you have a much higher rate a risk of of dying even if you are well and unemployed or retired then you are you have a higher rate of mortality if you are at one point seven percent forty-seven percent higher chance of dying early er if you're unemployed and well and eighty-six percent chance if you're retired so there is something causal about unemployment and and actually regardless of whether people e-, even healthy unemployed people won't die earlier than as a result of unemployment so what is it about unemployment that is such risk of health even if people are well when they become unemployed did you look at this what did you what did what did you think what theor-, there are these different theorums aren't there what did you conclude what is it about anyone experienced unemployment i know that a number of people have experienced unemployment and all of its effects what it was about or what is it about unemployment that actually damages your health sf5471: i'd say it was number of things nm5464: okay let's try and learn okay Jennifer what things sf5471: er it's like stigma of in terms of respect nm5464: alright yeah sf5471: er nm5464: status and what kind of voice sf5472: social status sm5466: material social nm5464: sorry status what do you meant by status sf5472: because it changes if your'e from being a working person being able to afford things and you know to maintain a lifestyle nm5464: so it's money as well money and ability to buy things buy a lifestyle okay but status is something different how people value it sf5471: esteem su: about yourself yeah nm5464: so it's your own esteem about how you perceive people higher with more money do you think someone unemployed has a higher has a lower status in society than someone sf5472: even if you didn't feel like you did you would be made to feel like you ahd nm5464: right what would you be made how would you be made to feel sf5472: because of stigma nm5464: right yeah who how how would the stigma operate where would you get this where does it come through from whom and where what the government thinks like everyone should be in work and have a job whether you're a single parent disabled too wealthy to work that kind of thing do you think that adds to the stigma of unemployment sm5466: underclass do nm5464: pardon sm5466: underclass nm5464: the notion of the underclass sm5466: yeah nm5464: yeah but they're the underclass is the people who's blamed for their unemployment where else does it come through sources of stigma sm5466: material differences nm5464: the family family and colleagues yes family neighbours sf5475: and society in general really nm5464: yeah sf5472: media nm5464: the media yeah that's what i was just thinking do you see the media often sf5471: yeah nm5464: has stories which mind these things Amanda your nodding what did you has anyone seen stories in the media that newspapers or T-V that or how unemployed people are betrayed sm5466: well go back to the Thatcher years where there's a single parents nm5464: right yeah sm5466: that's one of the main problems nm5464: anything that people lose i mean what do people lose as a i mean they lose money but what do they lose as a result of of unemployment i mean that actually sm5466: status class status sf5471: access to employment nm5464: pardon sf5471: access to employment i'd say in that if you went for a job five years after you've lost your past one maybe through health maybe due to a number of reasons if they said to you when did you last have your when did you last have a job you said five years ago why did you give up this job what reason and then said why didn't you go out and find another one if you said i couldn't be bothered er i needed time off to recover or whatever that's it's going to put a certain stigma on you again as being lazy again even though you may have needed that time off to raise a child or whatever nm5464: okay the other thing i wanted to get at is this Jehovas anyone looked at the Jehovas idea of what it is about God sf5470: but i think nm5464: right she argues there's lots of jobs things about jobs the give you a reason to get up in the morning or being a student you know or being a lecturer as well as money and that once you lose that sense of identity that you have a purpose that you have do something also the experience of time there are weeks and weekends the timing structure and so on but which do you think here is more important i mean how would things work through to ill health how would these kind of psychological feelings around esteem or status or worries about money how does that work through to why people get heart disease and cancer how would why is it that there is and and more suicide why is that there is these kinds of things around that lead to these kinds of things sf5470: causes physical nm5464: right sm5466: well we thought that they were linked anyway you know you couldn't discard one without the other it's certainly linked nm5464: okay but what is it about money how does the money worry about money how would that sm5466: you know i mean you just can't achieve the material things that nm5464: right sm5466: that you strive for or wished around you know just general things you know things and you're feeling naked out of work not belonging out of anomy if you do find it Durkheimian thoughts nm5464: that's right well the thing is what's interesting is that actually in terms lifestyle and pride healthy lifestyle as evidence that it does affect your ability to purchase one so but what this the thing about the unemployment today is that not only does it demonstrate poor things that unemployment is a serious health problem and a health risk but it tells us that psychological health and physical health are closely linked both directly because actually feeling bad about one's self can change er your physical state and your body chemistry that puts you at higher risk of heart disease cancer but also that when you're stressed you do things like smoke more and care less about yourself and your diet so it it's a kind of circular effect so that's what in terms of actually looking is actually they're very connected in a sense that these psychological aspects material aspects so that's what i'm looking for when i get er your essays on unemployment and mental health Morris's states on unemployment and mental health okay we've nearly run out of time now so thanks for that we we next next week next you're going to start off by looking at housing and health and the int-, many of the problems and issues around housing and health are very similar really i think er in terms of how do we sort out whether people who are ill end up in housing or whether without housing become ill how do we sort out cause and effect so many of these issues are the same and also what is it about ill health is it the fact that er material conditions that affect your health or is it the fact that er a home is important to one's identity and if you don't actually if you're living in poor conditions and you feel bad about that that that's a psychological effects or is it a combination of the two so and it's linked to based on people because it's actually been showed that you can't separate all these things unemployment unemployed people often live in poor housing as well so how would you separate how the effects of unemployment from other social indicators so many of these issues are are the same really which is why Friar argues that they're all a part of really ma-, material disadvantage okay so er that's that's why i want you to sort of do some reading and thinking about next time and thanks for all your work this term and have a nice Christmas does anybody owe me any essays give me some either an essay do you owe me any essays or giving me excuses about essays sm5466: you can have both from me nm5464: don't press me okay have a nice Christmas okay i won't see you after New Years after Christmas but er but i'll give you're essays back and we can have an individual tutorial and if you've got any criticisms that you didn't want to give on the camera