nm5447: right what do we have for er who wants territory and who wants sex you 
know about degrees of freedom we might get to the back of you but that serves 
you right for sitting at the back with all the troublemakers what would you 
like to do territory or sex 
su: 
nm5447: what see if i said mating behaviour you'd probably've said territory 
but sex has got that works hasn't it so you're going to do sex and right the 
the the task at hand here is to think of how you do it how you space yourself 
out what territories mean to you and modesty forbids me from extending that to 
the other topic but i mean displays rituals how you do it the sort of key how 
it figures in your life so that both of those things getting off with people 
making mistakes and i'd like you to think about any of those examples what 
continuities there are between you and the rest of the animal world is what 
you're doing just the same as just the same as what animals are doing really mm 
you know they're quite homollegous the-, they're basic forms of the same 
essential way of doing something even if it's only a fruit bat er something 
like that or is it just something that's quite different what you're seeing 
here is only by analogy or or by some loose connection the same in inverted 
commas as what animals are doing and what you're doing is something for 
uniquely human ends in a uniquely human way so it's just to trace out the 
continuities and the discontinuities so you're going to do sex or mating 
behaviour and where's the next group start is that oh you're another group er 
are you alright what do you want to do
su: we'll do territory
nm5447: they're going to do territory then i suppose you could do territory 
separately can i do go round like that alternating so you're doing territory if 
you've got if you really object you can do the other it doesn't really matter 
so you're going to do sex you're going to do territory what do you want to do 
sex territory or sex 
su: sex
nm5447: you're going to do sex well we're two up from sex what'll you do 
su: sex
nm5447: sex sex sex [laughter] see me afterwards [laughter] right what do you 
want to do sorry what do you want to do [laughter] whe-, where's the next who's 
the next group are you a new one what do you want to do se-, alright we're 
looking a bit bit low on territory at the moment 
su: territory
nm5447: territory good for you 
nm5447: do territory alright so there's two groups at the back which one do you 
want to do 
su: yeah we'll do territory
nm5447: territory right that's alright yeah we've got probably one up on 
territory but that's alright we've got we've got some examples of each and then 
all i'm going to do give you ten minutes quarter of an hour to sort of think of 
examples then i'd just like to go round see what sort of examples you've come 
up with and what what sort of conclusions we can draw okay then anyone got any 
questions put your hand up or shout out and i'll come round otherwise i'll just 
leave you to get on with it
nm5447: how are you getting on do you think you've got enough to be getting on 
with i'd like to hear you know a bit from each group now er plenty of time er 
we are not ready to do it would you like another couple of minutes to jot down 
a few ideas or do you think you've got a few things to say you only need sort 
of to have a couple of what you think are telling examples of worth mentioning 
somewhere there may seem to be continuity but there is none or some where there 
seems to be a discontinuity but basically sort of saying how do you feel er go 
on er just er just stick your hand up if you'd like to go on for another couple 
of minutes er alright okay another couple of minutes then er start with 
territories and territoriality states claiming space things we do starting 
starting from the back are you a territory group i forgot now 
sf5452: yeah 
nm5447: could you give us give us one of your one of the topics that you 
thought of then initially er 
sf5452: mm about how both animals and humans mark out their own territory but 
in slightly different ways so like humans it could be mm their own room like at 
university you have your name on the door and that's like stating it's your 
territory and you may shut your door which means you know you want your own 
personal space whereas you know mm animals mark out their territory by like 
weeing and by senses and things 
nm5447: yeah did any of the other territory groups sor-, focus on that the sort 
of marking of one's space and the marking of ones territories none none of the 
other none of you picked that the other groups doing territories how would you
sm5448: when we first come to uni er kitchen everyone has to have their own 
cupboard and everyone names their own food an-, and that's i don't know if 
that's normal or if that's just selfishness that you don't want to share any 
food or want other people stealing it but 
su: yeah 
sm5448: you have a problem with trying to decide whether library er if 
someone's sitting there and this other chair is available if you go and sit 
next to them that's er er 
nm5447: go on
sm5448: it's more that you when you're you're brought up without other right 
situations to do that say from a pub or something and er you go up and talk to 
them it's the nature and that's okay but in a situation like that it's not 
really acceptable i'm not sure if it's inbuilt or not 
nm5447: that's that's a table there it's got six chairs around it someone with 
and someone with broad shoulders and curly hair working i mean i mean you're 
right if you were if you were in the library and you approached a table and er 
anybody you approached it and there's someone working there which seat would 
you go for
nm5447: anybody think of it
nm5447: yeah okay i mean B B or C this this is more distant but this is 
orientated away which is another way of making a distance er you can sort of 
create more distance from you and someone else by sort of turning away because 
er mm and then if if you know someone came and sat in A or E you'd feel miffed 
wouldn't you it's a bit like i guess going home on a bus if you're upstairs on 
a bus and there's only you're the only one up there and there's somebody else 
comes up it's not just you know they're not they don't just come and sit beside 
you even if they sat in the seat in front of you or the seat behind you alone 
it would still be awkward you'd wonder why i mean i guess it's it's a sort of 
expectation that you will maximise the distance between you and anyone else if 
it's a private situation isn't there there's a sort of norm that's an agreement 
that you do that would you not would you not say er if you wer-, if you were 
going into someone you knew in the library but there was still still working in 
the library somebody you knew which seat do you think you'd go for 
nm5447: you would sit opposite them would you if you knew them then you'd go 
and sit near to them cause you'd want to talk to them rather than work i 
suppose [laughter] if it was a meal like where would you sit cause you have a 
meal with you and then you've gone there to-, together and somebody's sat down 
in where which seat would you pick 
ss: D yeah
nm5447: so yeah or
ss: E 
nm5447: or E i think it depends how big the table is if it's a very big table i 
think you'd go you'd probably go for E wouldn't you but if it was a sort of 
smaller table you'd go for D again if it was something if you were going to 
debate or negotiate with someone what would you do
ss: D E
nm5447: yeah you'd sit opposite someone there's something about confronting if 
it was an interview you walk into a room and you're going for an interview and 
the person interviewing you was sitting in that seat which seat would you take 
this would be part of the interview of course it'd be crucial you picked the 
right seat which one would you go for 
ss: 
nm5447: which one 
ss: 
nm5447: yeah i think so there's an element of sort of confrontation in an 
interview isn't there i think if you went for E or went for A A would be the 
cool one to go for [laughter] i mean you might it depends how they there's 
something about intentions isn't there i mean one of the one of the pointers in 
this there's something about expressing your intentions when you when you have 
to go and sort of space yourself next to somebody else but also there's 
something about your entitlement you are entitled to some sort of to expect the 
other person to sort of keep some sort of distance from you i mean the question 
is is that the same as is that the same as what animals are doing when you talk 
about territories we were talking about marking territories weren't we and er i 
mean i suppose people do they sling their coats and books all over the table to 
keep everybody away and and compartments so that's if that's the equivalent of 
weeing do you think that's what it is sort of hanging jackets and sticking 
books do you think that really is the same as animals do with marking out 
territories
su: they mark out territory for different reasons
nm5447: to make sure they've got enough of an area to sort of to get food and 
things like that yeah you see i think that's a crucial difference actually we-, 
we-, we're using the word territory in this context in a in a sort of 
metaphorical way really it isn't really a territory it's a space around us for 
trying to sort of make sure that the norms are agreed to i mean we want that 
sort of space we don't want people sort of in our faces whereas what animals 
are doing is something about something mu-, i mean they're not everywhere in 
that territory for a start are they i mean i guess i guess there is a sort of 
an analogy here rather than a homology i think for any otherany other comments 
on territory and space cause it is crucial it isit is a very important thing to 
consider really whe-, when we're talking about space and when we're talking 
about territory and if what we're doing is is fundamentally doing what animals 
do or whether there are human needs here 
sm5449: with with human needs its cause er different like societies have 
different amounts of space like British are very very reserved and they 
probably would want a lot more space than a lot of other cultures which are 
more open to each other
nm5447: that's a good point as well isn't it that that there are there's 
cultural variation in how much space we can lay claim to and how much space we 
want not very not only for sort of interactions i mean these usually assume 
that different cultures have different preferred distances for interacting from 
or doing various transactions er but even within a culture i mean some people 
are quite happy to live in very crowded conditions flats cities other people 
couldn't bear that there seem to be a lot of individual differences in how much 
space which is important make it sound like a a human thing expressing some 
sort of individual preference did any-, anybody else have anything to say about 
that the sort of cultural differences even within a society within a nation let 
alone across cultures 
sf5453: looking at the difference with age as well because children require 
less space than adults a child will come and sit next to you in that situation 
nm5447: yes would you would you agree with that that children seem to require 
less space and are less worried about the ownership of space not always 
children can be quite private about what they're doing and not want to be too i 
think i think that's right why why do you think that is then why is there a 
difference between adults and children
sm5449: adults just learn what's to be expected what's right well not right but 
just the kind of norm
nm5447: adults learn what's expected and what's the norm i think i'd agree with 
that any other er adults
sm5451: adults are more likely to so-, sort of come up with communications of 
something like if someone like goes to the toilet next to you like the next 
urinal there you might be a bit suspicious [laughter] 
nm5447: it's so unfair women wouldn't have this problem [laughter] 
sm5451: be suspicious 
nm5447: there sort of asymmetries er er yeah i there are all sorts of 
asymmetries here aren't there about if a if a man goes and sits next to a woman 
in some public space as opposed to vice versa yeah mm what about this adult 
thing i mean you say that adults learn there is a norm is it not the case 
adults have have more to protect do you think the privacy the you know is 
something that you just have to try hard to maintain because it's more 
important to you i should think the maintenance of oneself as an adult is a 
sort of more more together more complicated process than as a child maybe 
adults you know desire that space more you know respite from having to interact 
with other people is perhaps more necessary they're certainly more aware of the 
norms as well i mean children don't they have a nice naivety about most social 
norms and we find that quite interesting quite attractive most of the time and 
we know we we smile and laugh at children's inability to behave socially 
whereas we get fed up with adults doing it usually let's get let's have another 
group move on from territory now now you were you a sex group or a territory 
group give this as an example er where are we on this next row the penultimate 
row are they i think you were doing territory were you 
sf5454: we were talking about whether it was mm inbuilt or not er we're about 
whether children about toys how they can be possessive sometimes with toys 
nm5447: right
sf5454: and we didn't know whether that was a problem cause you will only see 
that at a certain age whether that's something that they learned 
nm5447: mm yes
sf5454: or whether it was because it is a natural thing 
nm5447: i think to shade territoriality into possessiveness is an interesting 
step to take and i think it is relevant to human beings and i think a lot of 
what perhaps it's the case that a lot of what we construe as territoriality is 
as is as much about possessiveness you know my territory as s-, s-, something 
you own and it's a space you own or an object you own yes go on anything more 
about that then
sf5454: er and we were talking also about cultures and whether like some people 
think that maybe it di-, how territoriality you are is to do with your culture 
and that er so it's probably learned we were saying maybe it's initially 
inbuilt but then because of your culture some cultures go away from 
territoriality and some towards it more 
nm5447: yeah yes i think one one way of sort of tying this up as well is to 
think of the space you claim around you as something that you can personalise 
and claim as your sp-, your own space and then it becomes an extension of you 
an extension of your own personality something that says something of you and 
everybody looks you know your-, yourse-, yourself and your identity doesn't 
stop at your skin it certainly includes your clothes and it might include space 
that's unique to yours i mean you've all moved into most of you have moved into 
your rooms in a residence and i guess you've done various things to personalise 
them so that it is your space and it speaks of you and is an extension of 
yourself you sort of establish yourself you know not not just by what you look 
like and who you know et cetera but but through a little bit of space that's 
uniquely yours you know someone comes in and insults your room in this sense 
they've insulted you and lecturers do it as well you can see it in their rooms 
my room's tastefully decorated as an extension of myself [laughter] i can see a 
few of my tutees around here nodding vigorously but er you know it is it is you 
know so space is space you can claim a bit of space that can be uniquely yours 
as well and i don't know whether any of you were considering this particularly 
in the light of recent experiences i guess you all have rooms here you have 
your cupboards in the kitchen as well i suppose which is i guess that's not so 
much an externalisation of yourself as a space of convenience / that you need 
that's sort of practical but you put some your name written in a silly way on 
it or painted or coloured or anything like that has anyone personalised their 
part of public spaces 
sf5455: nobody er in our kitchen 
nm5447: nobody does no what about on on doors you know in the slot where you 
put your names on your doors some people have nodded though y-, y-, yours is 
printed is it twelve point times and do you have do you write your names on the 
on your door 
sf5455: no 
nm5447: yeah what about inside though what've you got 
sf5455: put your name inside the door [laughter] 
nm5447: i mean i i just mean do you consider it as something that mm it it is a 
space it's not your territory but it's it's a space that you own to use as an 
expression of yourself as well as a place where you live and sleep and all the 
other things store your clothes and your books and do your psychology essays 
sf5455: yeah i suppose so 
nm5447: right so so there there is there so territory sort of shades in human 
senses shades in sort of spaces which are extensions of ourselves which is not 
what ani-, animals are doing any animals think territory my bit of the savannah 
or the woodlands which speaks well of me you know that's not sort of on the 
cards right other other territory groups where are we coming anybody else in 
the penultimate row did territories okay the middle row the middle rank did you 
what did you do sex territories or sex sex what about the second row from the 
front well you've said yes you said any other any other comments about 
territories then 
sm5450: yeah in the s-, society i mean you know you've got different countries 
for example you know they kind of that's their territory 
nm5447: yeah
sm5450: they've got a need to belong to a certain country English and we like 
that 
nm5447: yeah
sm5450: and we clearly mark boundaries and to an extent in in countries as well 
you know you've got people say from Manchester or London or so and so and 
they're quite proud of that fact and
nm5447: that is a good point there are sort of territories nested within other 
territories aren't there that space is you know your room your house your 
university or your street your your town or region your country that's a good 
point er are there they're much more conceptual things aren't they you know 
they're they're based on ideas yeah what were you doing were you doing sex or 
territories 
sf5456: sex 
nm5447: what about what were you doing i've forgotten 
sf5457: we were doing territories
nm5447: you're in the same group as them 
sf5457: yes
nm5447: okay are there any any other things that we've missed going round any 
any points you've raised about the way we space ourselves out the way we marked 
mark territories the way we claim space the way we use space anything anything 
else we've missed are are your conclusions having thought about this then that 
that we are rather animal like or do you think we are rather unanimal like in 
in the way we use that word territory is it who thinks on the whole if you had 
to plump one way or the other we're fundamentally beastly we're we you know 
we're still rather like animals in the way we we use space implied territories 
who thinks that no one yeah go on be proud be proud to be a er go on see how it 
goes er interesting social phenomenon shark feeding frenzy one goes in 
everybody goes up okay and who thinks that no there are you know unavoidable 
discontinuities and that what we're seeing is only very superficially by 
analogy animal let's have a look how wonderful really nicely split on that i 
like that cause it's both it's the answer i guess the answer has to be both we 
are both you know the product of evolution is sti-, you know still there and 
how how we need space functionally but also we're we're something quite 
separate which just makes it more complicated but more interesting okay let's 
let's go for a good quarter of an hour to hear what there is on the er mating 
behaviour so let's start anyone in the back row i've forgotten now you were 
both doing territory were you
su: yeah
nm5447: okay so we're in the penultimate row starting with you you were doing 
sex right no one in your group territories you're all saying territories now 
aren't you [laughter] did you do you what are you doing mating behaviour and sex
sf5458: yeah
nm5447: great okay let's ha-, have a pick out something new one particular 
issues which you thought was interesting either demonstrating a discontinuity 
or a continuity with with the animals
sf5458: er the research about homosexuals was quite interesting about the mm 
different libidos between males and females and how with the homosexuals it was 
assumed that because they didn't conform to the norms as far as the mm with 
regards to having sex with males and females then they wouldn't conform to the 
norms about how often they did 
nm5447: how
sf5458: often 
nm5447: often
sf5458: yeah that the er i read it somewhere 
nm5447: okay yeah
sf5458: but mm i can't explain it very well but they were saying that females 
have lower libidos than males so they kind of put put the brakes on and er 
although lesbians have sex just as often as heterosexual females er gay men 
have a much higher partner turnover rate about ten to a hundred times that of 
heterosexual males because they haven't got the females putting the brakes on 
nm5447: well i mean you you say partner turnover is a function of frequency of 
of sex then cause it is that the implication you're just having so much sex 
you're ready for someone else much much quicker is that the implication then 
i'm not sure about that but it do-, go on
sf5458: well it was a piece of research i can't remember the exact details of 
it but er because of the er or something cause you know males like to spread 
their seed and 
nm5447: that raises
sf5458: pregnancy
nm5447: i mean that raises a more general point about the asymmetries in 
participation sex and display and mating which some people assert are there in 
human behaviour and also seem to be there in similar ways in animal behaviour 
and mm you might put that forward as a continuity about men being basically 
more promiscuous men being less committed and and being dominant and doing the 
chasing all sorts of things like that there are lots of there are lots of ways 
which men in humans are sort of typify this being different from female in the 
in the roles they play in mating behaviour ritual displays and some 
sociobiologists people looking for biological explanations have said this is 
fundamentally what animals do would you did you did you develop that at all mm 
have a view on that 
sf5458: well we also talked about er the different reasons for sex between 
animals and humans er how in animals it's very much more reproductive reasons 
which is why the males of the species always have got elaborate colours er and 
fancy sort of displays for the female but in humans er it's not so much about 
reproduction any more it's got like a another meaning sort of in a relationship 
nm5447: mm
sf5458: er and we talked about the differences and like how they sort of 
developed separately
nm5447: yeah it is i mean we have appetites we have to we have to want to do 
what we need to do otherwise our D-N-A doesn't get replicated we have to like 
eating we have to like drinking we have to like sex otherwise we wouldn't do it 
and we'd die all the species that didn't get that sorted are no longer here on 
the planet and all the species that really like doing those things presumably 
are still around and i guess it's a human achievement to educate taste and 
educate sound so we like listening to stuff and music and art and and sex is 
another appetite that has been has been educated from the kama sutra onwards 
and and and sold as well it has a has a commercial value anything people want 
will be turned into a commercial value you will realise that and that's that's 
something that i don't think you see in the animal world that elaboration of 
the pleasures of sensation and sort of conflicts as well i mean most of the 
Freudian psychology is about conflict between a biological urge and and a 
social a set of social conventions to control them to organise society in the 
face of it so i reckon that's a discontinuity between animals perhaps you know 
that an animal is is direct expression and the only thing that inhibits animals 
are a sort of other species fighting and threatening that they can't run fast 
enough and so on it's not quite the you and me situation as far as i can see 
anyway okay what's the next group anybody else on that row oh we've done that 
row haven't we you're all doing territory the middle row who's no you're in the 
same group aren't you er were you in that group were you doing 
su: no
nm5447: i can't remember you ought to have coloured shirts so we can better see 
what groups what did you any particular er 
sf5459: er we kind of picked up more on the physical attractiveness because er 
right and we were saying about how modern like really really slim one is kind 
of a break from a built-in evolutionary per-, perspective because if we were 
thinking in in evolutionary terms we'd expect men to like ones with like wide 
hips and big breasts and stuff but the slim shape doesn't fit in with the whole 
reproduction theme and er also the difference between er how in the animal 
world it's er men who do all of the strutting about with the fancy colours and 
what have you and then like in humans it tends to be women who put on the show 
more changing
su: 
nm5447: well that's i mean that's a good that's a good point again that's a 
good area for looking attraction and attractiveness and whether we see the same 
thing happening in animals as humans your example about thin narrow narrow-
hipped you said women could what about the argument that what's really on show 
there is a tendency for for youthfulness and their fertility and reproductivity 
to be attractive and that's what you're really going for er that then that 
would be a more biologically reproductively orientated argument wouldn't it th-,
that 
sf5460: could i just say something with the slim and er it's actually been 
suggested that males go for women with a slim waist because it show they're not 
shows that they're not already impregnated by another man and so they're not 
wasting their time by trying to make them pregnant 
nm5447: sounds far fetched [laughter] 
sf5460: no it's not really
nm5447: no i know they wouldn't publish it if it is er no i it's possible and 
it it doesn't seem very feasible does it i mean i guess i mean if i happened to 
buy a biological argument i'd be more impressed with the sort of we go for 
youthfulness and we go for health and therefore you know things that things 
that we find attractive are expressions of health and expressions of 
youthfulness but i was wondering whether that is the case in human beings 
whether that is what people find attractive i don't know er what about what 
females find attractive in males what's that bright feathers
sf5461: says something about strength er you know characteristics of strength
nm5447: is it strength is that what's attractive 
sf5461: i think so
nm5447: strength 
sf5462: they reckon it er always go for a man that's more capable of providing 
for you and your child and that er 
su: the difference between er 
nm5447: that's a diff-, slightly different thing or do you think do you think 
that is what when you don't think it's strength in a man 
sf5462: well you look for both don't you really but it for some reason i reckon 
that particularly you'll go for a male that's stronger both physically and 
mentally to provide for you 
nm5447: mentally and physically
sf5462: yes
nm5447: right 
sf5462: i mean in humans more than animals
nm5447: mm mm would anyone is that is that your common view er so is that isn't 
this a continuity between animal and human behaviour then er is this is this 
based on what we see in animals
sm5449: similarly it's going to be difficult obviously 
nm5447: can you hear that at the back 
sm5449: in that it's just we go for the same things but in a different context 
such as animals will go for strength in terms of protection whereas female 
humans will go for strength represented by wealth good job et cetera it's the 
same sort of thing it's just that 
sf5463: socioeconomic crap thats
nm5447: you'll have to speak up so they can hear at the back sorry
sf5463: humans socioeconomic factors they're important because animals don't 
have money basically they don't have and that sort of er and so what we were 
saying before about males having the brightly-coloured feathers for display 
humans do do that to an extent but it's more look how much money i've got 
rather than look how beautiful my feathers are 
nm5447: your Versace suits
sf5463: yeah
nm5447: well there's a good point made there about there's you know there's a 
socio-, a socioeconomic context a symbolic context in which people participate 
and what you want to see is people who are successful in that and so in some 
senses it is a type of display it is a promise of being good in that context 
effective and being confident but it's not about it's not necessarily about 
strength it's just about being effective and confident 
su: it's about power
nm5447: and power if you like yeah capacity in that sense 
sm5450: and humans have a choice i suppose animals normally the female has to 
cope with whichever male happens to win or be the strongest she hasn't got the 
choice humans tend to chose their partners
nm5447: you feel you feel humans have a choice do you 
sm5450: yes
nm5447: right yeah that's a good point humans have a choice you can go your own 
way and it is interesting that people different people like different things it 
isn't just the biggest or the biggest car there are other other things it is 
interesting in the animal world that some it seems to me that some of the 
things that are selected in sexual displays are really functional things like 
sort of speed strength and there are other examples in the animal world of what 
s-, selects like peacocks there's nothing er there's nothing functional about 
having all those feathers and that big display i mean you aren't going to be 
better ab-, able the better to breed because of that are you it seems a puzzle 
i mean i don't know the answer to that why is it that you can go down that 
evolutionary cul-de-sac or that evolutionary path
sm5449: isn't it that peacocks use them for intimidation and therefore the 
better the animal can intimidate the less likely it is to get killed or er 
nm5447: right but what intimidates a peahen might not be the same thing that 
intimidate-, in-, intimidates a predator i suppose but maybe it does well 
perhaps you're right perhaps they don't have many predators perhaps they're 
pretty safe 
sf5458: is it so hard to 
nm5447: possibly
sf5458: 
nm5447: yeah could be
sf5458: like with chickens how they have bigger things on their heads er 
nm5447: cones they're called cones i think aren't they
sf5458: yeah
nm5447: any chi-, chicken lovers here
sf5457: the whole thing 
nm5447: perhaps that's
sf5457: form of display the healthier the er peacock is going to be so 
nm5447: i think perhaps that sorry yeah i think that perhaps answers the 
conundrum they are displays but behind those displays is health and fitness and 
vigour isn't it and perhaps that's you don't have to fight i mean fighting is 
one way of showing vigour and fitness and health and maybe another is a display 
okay got to where are we up to who's in the top groups have we have you done 
one no you haven't you've been very productive in the have you got anything 
else to say you were doing sex weren't you 
sf5457: territory
nm5447: any other examples we haven't covered 
sf5457: we've got mating cycles 
nm5447: good yeah go on
sf5457: er animals tend to have sort of seasons where they 
nm5447: that's a good point actually
sf5457: er in the lunar world you don't have that 
nm5447: i think that is important from an evolutionary point of view did you 
hear that as a it-, it's that most mammals er i think their their sort of 
breeding receptivity and their cycle is basically an olfactory thing the right 
smells and they just go bananas you've seen this with dogs on heat it's just a 
sad thing to look at without getting involved for most mammals [laughter] most 
mammals are a bit like this you know their and it's their seasoning and they 
only get interested when the right smells are about and and that is a cyclic 
thing an attraction and all and all the sort of the paraphernalia that goes 
with sex is only relevant for small parts of small segments of their life 
whereas in cer-, in primates and human beings the shift has gone to the visual 
the olfac-, olfactory stimuli are not very important in in in attraction it's 
things you can see so baboons with his huge great red bum or chimpanzees an-, 
and and you know whatever it is that turns people on is largely you know the 
example you've been given about sort of physical attractiveness in this are 
largely visual ones and certainly not olfactory ones power strength those sorts 
of things and and the and the game there is that the relevance of sex as a form 
of attraction is there all the time and can be an influence on institutions and 
on behaviour all the time so i think that is an important thing and i think 
that's a it's it's not a difference that separates us from all animals cause 
some primates and so on and birds as well i guess no birds get sort of feathers 
come at the right time of year they moult don't they but certainly some 
primates it's a it's a it's a largely a visual thing and i think that's quite a 
its a good distinction to make it's a sort of continuity and discontinuity er 
any any other examples were you doing sex or were you doing territory
su: 
nm5447: doing sex were you the last group you haven't haven't said what what 
have you got anything have we used up all your ideas or is there anything more 
to add to this er 
sm5451: right er with animals it tends to be purely factors like the how well 
the the male can provide where-, whereas with people it tends to be there is a 
sort of underlying er what could be cultural factors a woman might want a 
husband who can provide for her and protect her but on top of that there'll be 
the sort of factors that she wants him to have you know short brown hair and 
blue eyes and stuff 
nm5447: mm
sm5451: to wear a certain type of clothes have certain interest in that that 
kind of sort of thing 
nm5447: yeah look like particular role models looks like David Beckham 
[laughter] David Beckham's first touch you know er okay that's a good i mean 
that's a good point a lot of them are overlaid aren't they pers-, personal 
individual preferences er is that
sm5451: cause we can't also we think that it's not just about reproduction 
there's someth-, maybe companionship where you also might be looking for people 
of similar inter-, similar interests 
nm5447: yes
sm5451: whereas animals 
nm5447: yes
sm5451: might not do
nm5447: it's about relationships it's going to be a sort of symbolic thing 
isn't it in a symbolic world and that becomes relevant and you sort project the 
person into that yes er okay well we've just got quick poll then on the if we 
have to jump one way or the other on er mating behaviour and sex who's thinking 
that you know we're still just basically animal in this and what we're doing is 
essentially a slight human elaboration of a of a of an animalism hands er see 
if we can look round and estimate a number and who thinks that when we er enter 
the sort of realm of sex display an-, and so on that we're in a different realm 
and humans for humans it's a different set of issues er slightly the the more 
psychological social psychological one there but once agaain i guess it's got 
to be both we manu-, you know we are as i said at the beginning there's an 
evolutionary background and there's a sort of psychological development as well 
and er both have to be right both i think er okay does any everyone have any 
any-, anyone have any final questions about this er things we haven't said er 
okay er we've reached the end of our seminar in here so we'll meet up next time 
okay if i can shed any of you into a nine o'clock group or the other the other 
two of you might consider doing that er otherwise if you don't mind being a in 
a big group er could i could i have the copies back if you want to keep them 
keep them actually cause i er