nf5395: how are you doing for next week are you are you organised is everyone feeling alright about the presentations you probably haven't done anything yet have you [laughter] su: nf5395: right er who's the Latin America group su: nf5395: do you want another book or not just got another book if if you can't face it you don't have to have it sf5397: well i think we better have it better to have it than not it doesn't mean we have to nf5395: no absolutely right you don't have to read it sf5402: er for the India er group have you got any books nf5395: oh yes i've got some more books for India yeah er sf5402: have you given any books we'd like nf5395: yeah i i have given books sf5397: it doesn't have your name in it this one i'm afraid nf5395: hang on just got to write that one down namex er the India group Eva and Nina er i've given er i've given i think i've given one book and about three articles but i've got some more i've got two more books er those two this is historical but this one goes up to nineteen-ninety er and then i've also got this is really interesting it's er it was written by a woman who was subjected to domestic violence and she set up a kind of er a movement and subsequently became a lawyer a lawyer in Bombay so er it's really you know it's about her experiences er and this is really interesting it's by er and it's called why do i not call myself a feminist er and she gives all the reasons you know what the problems with western feminism are for for er activists in India er and then this this er there are some replies in the letter section of the same journal er you know taking up a different position so there's a reply by and various other people so i copied that so who would like do you want those and who wants to be responsible for them i'm going to make responsible for them because she's in in up my department ok Eva so right so you're responsible for these four things okay do not write in them do not turn the pages down do not lose them sf5396: you're scaring me [laughter] nf5395: yeah i know i'm trying to scare you oh i just er photocopied a few a couple of things from this this was Sunday's Independent on Sunday er and i photocopied the front page which was about climate change the climate change conference er which basically failed to achieve its er i don't know how you're how you're gonna pass that over oh Lord and this is er an article from the London Review of Books about the World Trade Organisation conference er any that one you have to read that you have to read it down the page it's very big it's you know A three and so you have to read two pages of columns down you have to keep flicking between one page and the next now these are course reading forms so er i'll give them out today can you please fill them in and bring them back next week and don't forget because these are really important to us i mean er first of all we have to actually present them to our examiners but secondly they're just really important in helping us to improve the course each year so please please you know regard them as really serious feedback because we take notice of them er and i and i would please bring them back next week but i would like somebody to take responsibility for chivvying and urging your colleagues to remember to bring them back so who would be willing to do that come on who's willing to do that you'll get extra special credit for doing that [laughter] thank you Kathleen i didn't say what sort of credit su: my exercise for the day nf5395: yes right er so we're doing gender and globalisation today and er i suggest that we have two groups this time so is that ok er maybe some latecomer will arrive in which case we'll set up another group er so let's go straight into the into the group discussion and er well are you happy to have a group here and a group there ok so but please move round because er you can't talk in straight lines sf5397: the weakening of the state and the breaking down of the barriers between nation states that division disappears sf5396: but what i mean is is that sf5397: ok so but but the result of distinguishing between these two levels in the end sf5399: sf5397: what there ceases to be such a division sf5399: yes sf5396: yeah ok that's fair enough but er there's less of a nation state but the thing is that's something else that's interesting is that er that the theory is that but in practice it's more of an international sort of development rather than global as such it's about communication between nation states it's not actually you know nation states still do a certain amount of talking sf5397: yes but it was thought to it was going to sf5396: the theory behind it sf5397: yeah the theory behind it is some kind of global government group sf5396: yeah sf5399: when some one country do this it's affect the other countries because if you decide that nation nation nation state nation nation state is only one countries when this last last world war second world war was it changed globalisation sf5396: did anyone ever say specifically when it they never do do they sf5397: it is a nineteen-eighties trend isn't it but er sf5396: product of er globalisation sf5397: yeah it's a without without without the internet without the global network i don't know if it's sf5396: transportation sf5397: that's it sf5396: we wouldn't be able to fly to Australia sf5399: sf5397: exactly and information the thing is i mean like transport of food actually i have never seen it how does all that food come does it just come on planes with just fruit i don't know like lorries sf5396: sf5397: yes but they are but i think still they are travelling i mean like cheap package tourism started during the sixties yeah i mean they're sort of drawn into the consumer er pressure sf5403: and yeah the western countries have also have to implement the structure for them as well and it means that cutback of the social spendings and everything sf5402: er yeah as far as the women are concerned su: sf5402: er yeah they do create jobs and they do give more independence on the other hand it's basically ok here is er ok this bit sf5401: sf5402: no in different parts of the world su: what are you looking at sf5402: and women were taken as as er very elastic labour like that you could hire and fire as you want yeah as you want yeah but also in their domestic environments because it means they do get paid but on the other hand the values still have to be regarded as patriarchic yes that's right a lot of er organisations were created by woman or women and these women were very much involved in those organisations plus the job plus their roles inside inside the house but the point is that men if they get that paid jobs isn't as highly valued as a public one sf5401: is it their choice sf5402: stay home or do both right sf5400: it has been said that in terms of benefits particularly into financial benefits there aren't any because they're paid so low sf5402: yeah sf5400: and that's that's the whole thing with globalisation is that the impact on the so called is that it's post colonialism i can't describe it in any other way because all they do is to partake for them that the globalisation has been they call it of the markets and it is because it allows them to go in and exploit the workers' means so for instance Marks and Spencer's Marks and Spencer's renowned itself on being British and always because everything they made was made in Britain the textiles came from Britain they've now gone into the third world because they found that they could not compete with the cost of wages sf5402: sf5403: sf5402: sf5400: yeah in particular whose values and norms are being taken on in the process of globalisation there certainly isn't and and the impact of that is that now you got er the environment is being destroyed sf5400: actually it's quite interesting because McDonald's opened in Barbados and they lost in a few months literally Barbados three months because Barbados wouldn't support it sf5400: they don't eat fast foods like er you won't have what's the chicken people su: Kentucky sf5400: Kentucky they're there and they they work because it's chicken but they have what they call er i'm trying to remember the name of the company it's a based company it's actually going round the world and it does one it's very similar to KFC but it's kind of Caribbean style er and they have chicken products and that's another one and and like McDonald's has er not McDonald's KFC has its own competition with it the Caribbean and but McDonald's because they said they didn't want it like that to begin with but then that's part and parts of the whole evils of multinationals they feel that they can go into anywhere it's very focussed it's it's they call it the because it is it is renowned the to be the one of the most forward looking countries in terms of and that's that whole ban thing you know they said er at the summit what they were looking at is that the stipulations because of course you borrow money under certain conditions and the conditions were that you cut down on education cut down on welfare cut down on health and at the time who was the prime minister he said what he said health education and welfare is the main stand of that economy once we do that but it shows that it can work if you're determined enough to do it and if you've got the people behind you it will work because Barbados a second example now from the Caribbean Trinidad Islands and Tobago Trinidad and Tobago had oil went into and now it's it's just totally been because of the stipulations they put on it sf5403: sf5402: it has it has the best of both though it's taken on a lot sf5403: you know it's just not so good sf5402: what you were saying coming back to that happened a lot especially in eastern European countries when they were forced to well not forced to but when their economies were liberalised er well a lot of their sf5400: look at our system and i mean you know we're talking about a first world country su: yes sf5400: mm so if you equate that to them popular ones in saying this is the way to move for countries er that are dependent where the people are dependent on state welfare then think oh well this is the model to follow because the west says it's so sf5402: and the thing is like sf5400: sf5402: and the thing is as soon sf5400: it's unfair yeah sf5402: who suffers the most i mean definitely and like they give the example of India sf5400: one of these articles actually said in poor countries you have poor men but you have poor women sf5396: in various articles that er that actually it just that's just increasing women's burden because they still largely have domestic responsibilities as well as others sf5397: yeah i suppose they take it for granted sf5396: but then they they do suggest that er you know again as we said they're not secure sf5397: they're not secure sf5398: no sf5396: but then also it's it's er because men are being er expected to change their perception of who the responsibility lies with in the domestic situation so women may be being given equal opportunities in the sort of public sphere if you like but er they're still being considered responsible for the domestic as as well so it's actually just it's rather reallocation of the roles sf5397: it's just an extra thing sf5396: what they have to do argues that that er that that actually it's still a process of exploitation and it's still in a sense a gender divide er because it's based on the assumption that women's time can extend sf5397: yes without any it's yes yes sf5396: we're definitely responsible for as much or as little as we you know what we're paying i think that's the idea but does that lead into question three or or am i just ahead of myself sf5397: no just for question two isn't it i would i would again i'd like to redefine what what er structural adjustment programmes are what are they sf5399: it's talk about sf5397: but by the world bank and the International sf5399: er sf5397: Monetary Fund are they something imposed it's something imposed from the west on the sf5399: you give informations sf5396: it's about isn't it isn't it about the er what what er the stake holder systems and er er taking away its own limited help for er health care nutrition sf5397: yes sf5396: childcare er they may be limited but progress must have been made it's now being taken away sf5397: yes sf5396: i think there's some examples in i think in Latin America where they're saying that in fact the situation was getting better and it wasn't sf5404: i i wouldn't blame I-M-F it is the government these countries that fail it's not IMF sf5396: no no but er sf5404: no it's not redevelopment it's grasped by a few persons a few privileged persons there was no development of the country so you you can't blame the westerner's monetary organisations or the west sf5396: yeah sf5397: but who but who impo-, who imposes these programmes the the local government sf5404: no it's just they have to make reforms because the economy was too planned but they have to make reforms anyway but it's their own responsibility sf5397: hm sf5399: this is all similar similar between er United Nations and NGO to discussing about the how to how to improve improve the women life sf5396: but they do make an er effort to come inline with a with a global position which is why they're dominated but if they hope to get on in the global market then they're sort of being forced to make certain structural changes that they can't cope with sf5404: but it's not sf5396: it's not the same sf5404: but it's not just it's just they can't go on with such a debt it's not because of western western imperialism or anything it's just they can't go on but it isn't economically it's not possible sf5396: but this is the whole point of the drop the debt campaign isn't it it's that the campaigners in the west who will say don't when they're still being held up for owing the west huge amounts of money that the westerners still you know sf5397: and the west sf5396: so if we drop the debt it would at least that would alleviate a huge problem in a lot of countries sf5404: yeah but i'm not sure if in these countries they can not at current times i mean the governments are not that good solving problems i mean drop the debt it's not going to be a miracle everything is going to be alright sf5396: what are you going to make to improve the situation i mean it may not be alright over night but it would actually i think you know improve we couldn't make it worse could we take away the debt surely sf5404: i think we do have to pay for the mistakes of other countries sf5396: oh oh [laughter] sf5397: so what are their mistakes that we that you're talking about corruption sf5404: yes sf5397: yeah sf5404: yeah they had resources they had money and they didn't use it in a proper way so sf5397: you mean after independence sf5404: er well Latin America is not a question of independence sf5396: sf5399: because in these countries they receive the er idea from the west to improve their country country so but it's different 'cause in in the west er the policy makers make for their people but in the in the third world countries it's different idea is different and and it has er the different resource er different people different everythings so they can't use the same idea to improve their countries so maybe it's mis-, yeah it's mistake er in only their own countries but because they get receive they get the the idea from the west to improve their countries sf5396: exactly with this idea we're going to a global market excuse me but but it's very dominated by very few countries you know so but it's kind of it's in a situation where it's more than independent countries you know it's more i mean in a political sense than in a geographical sense er you know of of being kind of being kind of forced to adopt if they're going to get on in any way even if it's not part of their you know their traditional you know makeup do you know what i mean am i making sense sf5397: yes no yes i know what you mean sf5399: because in Thailand in the case of Thailand yeah the government is has a caution yeah many many caution from er the politician or the er the officials in the government but first of all most of all they get the idea from the west and try to improve their by by form the policies or something like that try to because of this in the rural area there they try to use er the budget to improve infrastructure or something like that but the people er the rural peoples they don't know how to use it but is it is important for them to to use it because they are already poor they have no education so this when when when the government er build a building or er building the roads er some so er then and er it's only only the building cost nobody come and used it sf5396: right ok sf5399: they spend less less money to to to pay sf5398: sf5399: yeah yeah nf5395: how are you doing on the questions sf5396: er we haven't got on to question four yet nf5395: right what another what five ten minutes su: hm nf5395: right sf5400: one of the big debates you know this feminism stuff doesn't apply to us because our needs are different we want to be put on this agenda we want for more women to start being part of the process you know of doing research because of globalisation technically economically and politically it's put the third world in a strait jacket sf5402: yeah yeah yeah i think he's what the er sf5401: what does strait jacket mean sf5400: (giving a silent strait jacket impression) [laughter] sf5402: have you seen silence of the lambs sf5401: is it a means of control something like that sf5400: yes sf5402: yes yes a jail restricted sf5402: okay we need to do er this one why have we ten sf5400: this looks very sensible as the consequences of structural adjustments have become institutionalised in the global development process and in times of crisis have now become embedded sf5400: in their daily lives sf5400: so they've gone from they've gone from a point of of living the way they lived to to crisis of that kind of crisis every now and again is what a permanent crisis is sf5402: it's embedded yeah but we need to know er what can women's groups develop i mean what can effectively be done sf5400: well what they've actually said is that what they need to do is to er group together as women they need to identify as they have to the task the need to set up er movements as we would call them here in the west to counteract this but then the sf5402: what are they going to say sf5403: sf5402: yeah sf5400: that's right sf5403: because of feminism sf5402: but even beyond that even in even in er even sf5400: sf5402: yeah 'cause if the if the if the elite go yeah sf5401: sf5403: sf5402: the problem is it's the women who need to be heard the most are the ones least likely to actually be able to get their voices out sf5401: sf5403: sf5402: yeah directly yeah sf5403: sf5402: yeah but how often does that yeah sf5403: sf5402: yeah sf5403: sf5402: yeah sf5401: talk to the men in the country the government the government sf5403: sf5402: i don't think i don't think it gets into any individual level a broader economic level sf5400: i think she's right though sf5402: yeah yeah i mean the men are sf5400: because because what they do is when they implement these policies or they want policies to be implemented what they do is they speak to the men even if it's not the men who deal with that particular issue sf5402: yeah yeah sf5400: and so what women can't what what effectively they do is they and i think they've said it in those one of the ways is to just not do it you know when there have been programmes on or projects and it's not going to benefit them it's just not to do them and that's one of them then what they have to take aboard is that they need to decide for themselves what they need to do one of the reasons of coming forward is that they have to take on board the responsibilities of determining their lives and once they do they make their for them what's essential and then i mean there are a lot of things women can do i mean i know union organisation in the old fashioned sense is dying but it's a way of having force and it's a way of exerting power and maybe third world people need to reunionise or unionise themselves in order to perform some force out to get more wages because if they were to decide to pull out of the wage market they would need an employee at a higher salary which they would have to do or they would have to pay more to the women but when women are fragmented and continue to be paid the pityings then sf5402: that's it yeah but it's very how plausible is it how sf5400: it takes time like most things but it does actually work because of domestic violence and of all these things sf5402: yes yeah sf5400: you know if women decided that you know we're gonna men first er women had to kill their husband the women's movement came behind and women technically the law women cannot a man but a woman can a man you know and the women's movement er in the sixties were quite harsh in Britain and usually violence ended up in a man dying because sf5402: sf5400: well but something that will work it will take time it will take organising but it's a way sf5403: strategy from the grass roots sf5400: yes yes sf5403: sf5400: yes yes and but it's at grass root level where they were it's the sf5402: it has to be at the grass roots level sf5400: they're communianising because if you looked at Britain in the forties and fifties for better working conditions that's what they did in Britain so productions came to standstill and they had to listen to the people because then they had a representative so representing the force of the people and maybe that's a way women will have to structure themselves in terms of moving forward because that's the only thing they have but it's quite powerful sf5402: it's a very powerful thing sf5400: but i don't think they've actually realised that they do have that power and that they can exert that power sf5402: that's what i mean it's very difficult to convince them that they do have that power sf5400: yeah sf5402: because if you've been if you've been sf5400: it's educated sf5402: yeah sf5400: educated mostly sf5402: and if you've been like yeah your whole life it's very difficult to get out of that trap to actually think independently sf5400: but then sf5402: it's very difficult sf5403: sf5400: education and educating women the fact that they don't have to put up with this kind of behaviour sf5402: and it is very important that it is grass roots because if you get if you do get the elites going back and actually even trying to these women it comes out very differently sf5400: it's a different language as well isn't it it's a whole different language because if you if you look at the er if you look at the language that's used in a university and the language that's used on community level it's completely different so if you don't use the same language as they use they don't take any notice and it's a resentment because they sf5402: and i had to travel to the islands the backward people usually and i was in a programme with the health department and i was supposed to talk to these people about what i was majoring in but but then i had nothing to say because i realised say this is what the WHO wants you to do didn't have any effect at all sf5403: sf5402: but anything that has become effective was when people say from the UK were actually staying on the island for a longer period of time and then do something otherwise it doesn't work sf5403: sf5402: well i am but i am as far removed from them sf5400: sf5403: language sf5400: because i think language is a big boundary you know people speak words and if people don't understand even the meaning of a word then they're gonna be switched off because that word could be the whole er sf5401: a key word to make a point sf5400: yes yes exactly sf5402: yeah yeah sf5403: but actually or i think it was in the international organisations i think they have i mean they haven't hired local people to work for them and like you know sf5402: this is what i mean when they do in the mornings you'll find you'll find that in governmental jobs and all the high jobs are men but is actually the only international organisation who have but it's mostly local women who are employed local community people like educated locals right but the things is that's their way of employing the local people they've all employed local women but these local women usually are as far removed from them as any sf5400: sf5402: yeah it's it's sf5401: sf5402: it's like you said to me you're a new er elite role model it's you know what i mean and how sf5403: how could they that sf5402: most of us educated we go back sf5400: you see they have programmes in the Caribbean for instance er we call them popular theatre programmes and when you have projects to do you use popular theatre to do it you go into the communities because popular theatre speaks a language that crosses boundaries it crosses gender it crosses racial boundaries so you go in because what it allows you to do and in the Caribbean what we have what we call er we do skids and things what it allows you to do it allows you to go in you become a facilitator as opposed to er a tutor a lecturer or whatever you facilitate something predominantly what we do is you you teach the people the skills to do whatever it is they want to do so by the time we finish with the programme and we got out of them in a week what nobody else had been able to do now we didn't ask any specific questions we just facilitated the and gave them the tools in which to themselves to express what it is they wanted to say it was at a particular hospital the hospital staff came back and said similar things would have to nf5395: what is globalisation then does anybody know what globalisation is sf5396: we said we said a process on several levels but er the sort of the political er level of globalisation we talked about er deregulation mobilisation er and the sort of er economics we talked about the free market and er globalisation economically er which was something we said that globalisation is rooted in nations of capitalism er as well that's quite important and in terms of political set up it's also rooted in nations of democracy there's a perception that all states would be democratic er globalisation is sort of an element of it as well as perhaps a consequence of it is er mass media and mass communication networks and er the improvement in rapid transportation all across the world that those are the kind of key areas we looked at nf5395: and what else any sf5402: well basically that but we also said this er basically breaking down of any national or state boundaries where you get very much a blurring of what belongs where even politically and economically both as well sf5396: what what we were saying that that that may be the theory that that globalisation's theory is to break down these barriers but that the reality in practice it's not so much a global system as a kind of international system if you like i mean the nation state hasn't actually deteriorated sf5402: no not at all sf5396: i mean it does still exist i mean there may be theoretically i think yeah you're right that that's what globalisation is aimed at sf5402: but but the idea that a person that people from very different parts of the world can be employed in one single company that's that's i mean practically broken down a barrier that's literally broken down so nf5395: yeah can you give us some other examples of how i mean it's right that that er much of it is is internationalised er but there are examples of where er national boundaries are breaking down so can you think of other examples of that i mean you know why has this idea of globalisation arisen er what what other examples can you see sf5397: well within Europe nf5395: yes yeah sf5397: the workers can can move freely nf5395: right yeah what what sf5397: no it's just nf5395: did you did you think of other examples of where some why has why has the idea of globalisation arisen now do you think because in many ways it's something that's been happening for a long time not not just recently but why is globalisation such such a popular concept now sf5400: and movements of capital and er economic movements where er particularly from multinationals where profit is the key to everything they do so obviously the cheaper the labour they'd get the more profit they can make and globalisation is a legal way if you like of being able to do that is to transport labour er from one part of the world to another er but in the true sense globalisation doesn't happen because then that that money if you like the investment doesn't stay in the country in which it goes or where the development is actually taking place so you will always have inequalities er even though the the point of or the whole point of globalisation should be for a fairer for a freer world but it's freer for whom and fairer for whom because it's not really fair and it's not free nf5395: yeah so i one of the reasons that that globalisation is a er an important concept currently is because of the way er er companies are able to move across national boundaries and there's no state control or at least state control of of er er industry has broken down to a great extent sf5397: so it's economic interdependence actually nf5395: yeah yeah which as you'll recognise has has been going on for a long time you know er since colonial times er but it's intensified in particular ways in recent years and the other i suppose the other really big example is er the fact that rich and poor aren't so clearly separated between geographical areas now so that there are er sort of important examples of where industrialisation has begun so sf5396: nf5395: ey su: other culture nf5395: yeah but i mean in su: areas of the world nf5395: yeah areas of the world sf5397: as in in south east Asia nf5395: yeah i mean that you know that's a key one where where er it's no longer the case that it's the west that's that's industrialised er and the third world that is agra-, agrarian er so particularly in south east Asia but also in other areas and in other smaller areas in different parts of the world that kind of clearcut polarisation between rich and poor is changing er so that's another reason that er you know the old theories don't really work any more because they were based on that kind of polarisation er so there is greater change now it's it's not it's not something that's particularly different from what's been happening since colonial times but but there are more changes and globalisation is trying to take the term globalisation is trying to take account of those those changes which don't really fit into modernisation theory and interdependency theory so very well ok what are the effects of globalisation then in different areas of the world sf5400: in the in the developing world it's it's had a great effect on women in particular because it means that their role as individual people has expanded er from the caretaker of their home er from domestic work from agricultural work into low pay employment so instead of just having the family and the fields to look after they now have the onus of going on jobs and also in terms of migration for men and that has an impact then on production and reproduction er sf5402: well one advantage that's been cited is that it does give women more independence well er for instance just being just getting money for instance from these NGOs that operate there but that's the only advantage 'cause like you said then they they have their job but they all but it's having earning money doesn't mean that the job they're doing in the domestic domestic sphere like at home doesn't so it doesn't decrease at all and their role as i mean it's still a patriarchal family so her role doesn't increase either it doesn't so it's the idea of stretching her time stretching women's time sf5396: we were also saying that that women's employment is still very insecure there's no kind of stability to it whatsoever er and that it would help if there was a a sort of reappropriation of roles within the domestic area but there isn't sf5402: no there isn't yeah sf5396: it's not women coming into the workforce a little bit and men starting to take some of the domestic responsibility sf5402: the idea that the man is still the breadwinner still lingers on although she although the women are now earning as well sf5396: so that the the exploitation is now rooted in in this idea that women's time and resources is endlessly expandable sf5402: yeah infinite time yeah nf5395: yeah what other effects what about this group what did you sf5403: actually i was thinking about the first world women as well because you know now big companies have moved you know to use cheap labour in the in the third world countries right so women in the first world also lose their jobs at the same time so you know it doesn't mean that women in the first world will gain benefit from globalisation yeah because they have something to lose as well nf5395: right and that's an example of that kind of change when it doesn't easily fit into the old theories er so that you're getting you know increasing pockets of poverty in rich countries and certain areas of growing er richness in so called poor countries so yeah sf5401: and i also feel that er globalisation has has has opened Africa the countries in Africa put gender on the agenda national agendas nf5395: yeah yeah sf5401: cause er from Namibia er in ninety-five when the country was made aware through globalisation of the Beijing conference and it is the first time in since Namibia's independence that it can really participate on gender issues nationally and after that five years after that Namibia started a gender ministry for the first time so i feel globalisation in a way forced African countries' men who were in authority to recognise that gender can also be discussed in this country and it obviously affects any woman's activities in the country from agricultural level to economic level and things so globalisation is then a positive thing but what happens after that now the ministry's established gender is on the agenda it's how it is going further on it is the question now but just to make it present recognised in the country in the first place globalisation has done a tremendous effect on this nf5395: that's that's a really interesting idea actually isn't it because it's it's kind of it's legitimising these certain kinds of issues which i'm sure have always been there er but have not been recognised sf5401: there's too much pressure from the outside from the first world countries on the third world countries to recognise the value of women's work in third world countries sf5396: but i think one of the interesting things about that as well is that in improving the situation for women because women are often responsible and things like in developing countries but er sustenance and those of agriculture so it's actually you know in addressing their concerns you're you're improving the situation of the society at large you know for er sort of the families as well as er you know the men and so it's i think that's starting to be recognised er you know it's not just about making the situation better for women but it will actually have wider you know widespread effects nf5395: yeah but i i think Kathleen's point is really important because there's a tendency to focus all on the negative aspects and how effective globalisation and increasing integration across the world er just spreads all the bad things about er the global economy but Kathleen's example shows that actually it can be used by other forces it can it can we can use it the way we want er the fact that that you know transport and communication is easier can be used by by the women's movement er so yes it's a it's it's really important to kind of have that that idea that it can be a positive force as well because that's the only way we'll make it a positive force yes what other effects does globalisation have in other parts of the world what did this group discuss sf5397: we talked about er er about the effects er on the families er but er from what from what from what we i've read er it varies a lot and so er the patriarchal structures you're talking about i think in some cases er things are things are changing a little er nf5395: yeah can you give an example for that do you remember any sf5397: well there it was the article on on Chile it it they said they found it very difficult to generalise because because er it varied so much from family to family and that er er during the working months women women who are earning and sometimes they earn actually more than than the men in their jobs and er yeah in some in some cases er the men were you know changing changing their roles at home and others they didn't at all so it's and again in the winter months they reverted back to traditional roles but still it shows a change yeah nf5395: yeah and again that's that's interesting because it shows that the effects of globalisation aren't even they aren't even you know so you can't you can't just assume that because an effect's in one place is like this to be the same somewhere else there are there are very uneven er impacts in different places of the world and different locations and that's why er that's why the idea the concept of globalisation is often linked with the concept of local the local or that horrible word localisation er because you in other words you need to look at the specific location and examine what the effects are there within that particular context er because because er there can be such great differences in the effects er so it's important to remember that it's you know uneven in its impact sf5402: nf5395: yeah sorry sorry was going to say something sf5402: i was going to say er with mm especially in eastern Europe i read something about that er with political liberalisation and economic liberalisation state welfare was cut back a lot and usually it's the women who suffer the consequences when state welfare's cut back so that's er sf5403: i feel again it happens everywhere like in Thailand like in in nineteen- ninety-seven we have that financial crisis and then the world bank and IMF came to help us they said they help us by giving us some loans but under the conditions that we have to cut back of the social spendings especially those related to health care and education so women er basically affected yeah the most by the cutbacks yeah nf5395: yeah has anybody read anything about er why women are affected why is it why are women particularly affected by the by structural adjustment schemes sf5396: for for example when we were talking about cutback on certain social spendings so there's a reduction in education services for example and they were saying that it tends to be er a reduction in women's education in women's adult literacy in you know it's the er it's the girls who then stay at home and they're considered not to you know need the education as much as the boys do because there's still this kind of patriarchal structure so they're actually losing out on education more er or if you know food subsidies are reduced whatever what we've talked before about sort of er the patriarchal situations within the family you known it tends to be the women who who lose out more who sf5397: and childcare childcare reduced sf5396: yeah because the area of cutbacks tends to be more in the social and domestic sphere which is obviously where women are sort of you know primarily are at the moment nf5395: right yeah so i mean you know when the when the state is drawing back from er services of various kinds it's almost always the women who're taking up the difference in in the family so if er if if there are educational cutbacks er cutbacks in health spending it's women who are who are having to do those in unpaid time so what was in in the paid economy has moved over to the unpaid economy so that's why structural adjustment programmes are particularly bad for women because it's it's actually and of course there's no recognition of this by the world bank or the IMF er but when they introduce those kinds of programmes they they're actually er i mean the idea is to improve the economy but they're improving the economy by using women's unpaid labour er in in areas where it used to be paid where where those kinds of services were paid for er so it's you can actually see a very direct link sf5400: there's also some places where er it has added poverty that's already been there and that people are in fact poorer because of globalisation than perhaps they were before er and i mean one nf5395: you mean structural difference sf5400: sort of yes yeah nf5395: yeah yeah sf5400: er i mean because for instance in the Caribbean you look at places like Jamaica and compare that to Barbados Barbados who wouldn't take IMF loans and Jamaica that did and the whole economy structure has are are completely different and because Barbados was not prepared to lose the welfare it gave or to reduce its education or health because they saw that as prime factors for any nation that was looking to develop they had to have good education they had to have good welfare and they had to have er good health infrastructure and so for them that was key to their economic development and they would not er adjust those and at the time the Barbados prime minister said well if those are the conditions under which we get a loan we'll not have the loan er and so they rejected it and they rejected their loan a couple of years after someone like Trinidad and Tobago and Trinidad and Tobago is now sunk into poverty because of the rates that they have to pay back on that loan and their education system is well it hasn't demolished it they still have got education but they that was because they decided that they would maintain that at the cost of other things so for some places it hasn't really had the impact that maybe it was meant to have nf5395: that's a really interesting comparison sf5400: very unique i think i think that kind of is very difficult to sf5402: yeah but as we said it it takes the will of the people the people have to be behind politicians in order to push that through because er Barbados the whole of Barbados was up in arms about it lose our education they've gotta be kidding er and so it was it made life easier because he knew that he could reject it because the people were behind him and so it is and we talked about that in terms of mobilisation of women mobilising themselves and how at a grass roots level they could do that but they needed to have confidence and perhaps some form of education in which they could have the confidence to actually say well hold on a minute you know we've just been used as cheap labour and as er and and look at the whole implications of that but because the they look at the financial aspects and because that's what's portrayed with capitalism i guess it's a false ideology er what what it can bring forth nf5395: well did did any other er did you discuss er what women should might do to tackle some of the negative effects negative effects of structural adjustment programmes it's called sf5400: it's quite an old concept but we thought it might be useful for grass roots women to actually go back to that because with nf5395: it's an old concept in the west i'm not sure it is in other places sf5400: that's right and that's that's what i was going to say for for the west it is an old concept but for er underdeveloped or developing countries it would be a new but it would be a force that they could use but it would mean that they would have to er mobilise themselves and have a form of action in order to do that but they say strength is in or power is in strength and if you can get the people to actually condense themselves and to organise in that kind of movement then that could be one way where they could actually start demanding more for their labour er and get clearer boundaries as to what because this thing they talk a lot about this flexibility but i mean flexibility begins begins with its insecurities and for both men and women nf5395: ok did anybody read of any examples sf5396: we were saying we noticed that most of the stuff we looked at was quite pessimistic that er that it sort of charted er the action as being sort of female activism as as being generally quite specific and and localised as as in saying therefore not necessarily having any major impact on sort of structural adjustment programmes on a sort of national level because they were having sort of whilst you know you can't i don't want to say that any kind of programmes isn't worthwhile because it is and in these local contexts it's got to be seen as a positive thing that they're doing something and that their voice is being heard but it's not actually effective you know on a greater scale er and also there's an an example in the article we were talking about er the return to fundamentalism in some places that as a sort of backlash against er this sort of notion of of modernisation and globalisation there's there's this kind of we'll we'll refer back to to sort of kind of traditionalist fundamentalist ideas which aren't you know either way this isn't improving the situation for for anyone but not not for women certainly so er it's all a bit depressing really isn't it nf5395: ok we talked a lot about er structural and economic aspects of globalisation but what about the cultural argument how far does cultural globalisation spread do you think we're all becoming one culture sf5396: Americanisation i think nf5395: yeah to an extent sf5396: in lots of ways nf5395: what do you think about that su: what sf5396: Americanisation i mean you know there's McDonald's in Moscow it's gotta be bad you know and i think that's the thing that it's not necessarily er in the same way that economically er you know interdependence is kind of er a rather friendly term because what it actually means is that there is but a few leading world powers and lots of countries that are really heavily dependent economically but i think there's a a worry that you know culturally that could start to happen as well it's like some cultural ideas could dominate when they shouldn't you know sf5402: i think there is an idea that there is one particular way that we should strive to be like it's cool to wear a jeans and drink Coca Cola kind of thing i think that's actually penetrated a lot of cultures other cultures nf5395: yes and the examples you've just quoted are very significant because they you know they're mass produced commodities aren't they sf5402: yeah it's it's nf5395: so there's a there's a kind of strong cultural drive towards er encouraging people to have to have the desire to buy those things sf5402: yeah it's i think we were saying that globalisation plays a lot on people's greed that's why it's very difficult to cut cut it because she was saying can you actually hold it hold it back and you were saying that you know it's i can't see it happening in our lifetime because it plays so much on greed 'cause it's the idea that you know if they have it why shouldn't we have it so it's sf5400: there was an interesting thing there with this Miss World competition coming up though it might seem not relevant but it was because they were talking about culture and cultural boundaries and they were saying that now for Miss India there were specific this debate it was on radio four was really looking at India and Indian women and how they have actually now er if you like modelled the typical western woman that they would like to see on the stage for Miss World and so the poor the fat people who have er cultural who who are dressed in cultural dress who speak with any kind of dialect is not going to be looked at for the Miss World competition because they go out to win and they were saying that India has won six time five times in the last six years or the last six times and because for now they have decided if they're entering it and they said rather than now pick a woman a Miss India woman it will be all these factors of the west are taken into consideration so cultural norms as India sees them are no longer valid for a Miss World Miss Universe er competition and i think that shows the ways in which talking about culture cultures are emerging because they see this as the as what is expected what will win sf5402: with with that Miss World thing i think there's er a whole section of these cultures who're actually fighting fighting it a lot because what you said about Miss World when Miss World came back back to India after winning the competition there was a great uproar when she came at the airport and stuff because she'd actually worn a swimming suit on stage and they were saying you shouldn't have done that 'cause that's not part of us so so there's a lot of fighting about it as well fighting nf5395: yeah that's right i think that's true er and also i mean i think you now the example you've showed is very significant because it's a particular model of woman who that is being exported isn't it and it's not the one that any of us would want to to export you know er you know it's sf5400: that's the whole point and i think taking back this point about er McDonald's in Moscow i mean i was just saying to these McDonald's lost in three months in Barbados literally they built it it was like forced they didn't Barbados did not want it McDonald's decided nf5395: how wonderful that really cheers me up sf5400: it was there for three months and they actually said they had ten customers in three months and it was pulled down people up Barbados is just if we want it we'll get it if we don't we won't don't come in here without our permission 'cause sf5396: when it opened in Moscow is that basically the price of a Big Mac for a lot of people was a week's wages but they would spend it because there was this kind of you know this idea of you know this is something i don't know luxurious almost and something exciting and new look we must you know this this notion of of really having to buy into this kind of western culture is is is really you know powerful sf5403: i think that might be a result of the international technology as well i mean internet and mass media you know they keep pushing this subject ahead yeah so that is i think that is part of the globalisation as well i mean globalisation of international communication and technology you know even the people in in Africa or you know in in Burma or in Cambodia they have access to the internet now so you know this kind of information does fly into the into your country you know nf5395: right but the question is can it come back the other way you know i mean it is two ways it is possible to resist it er sf5396: but er you know maybe the American culture they could be informed more by er sort of other cultures coming the other direction because i think at the moment it's a bit of a sort of token and stick er effort you know so i don't know Madonna wears a sari you know it's sort of not enough it's i think you know it'd be really nice to be informed rather than having just certain stereotypical or taking on of other peoples' cultures sf5402: the thing is what you said about the sari what you'll find in the fashion world now sari's become a big thing but it's in such a western way you'll find women in India actually wearing their saris like they're done on the stage as it is in London which doesn't it's completely beside the point so it's nf5395: so what do you think about the globalisation of culture then do you think it sf5400: i think it's a sign of because i think we're losing so much by a lot of cultures are nf5395: but you think it's really happening sf5404: human rights is kind of an effect of globalisation and that's a very positive thing nf5395: hm yes that's true sf5404: and the women rights also is you know nf5395: yeah yeah sf5396: i i think also er you know it doesn't have to mean er assimilation that that sort of that we're talking about cultural globalisation doesn't have to mean that we will all become the same but but sf5402: but the problem is yeah sf5396: but do you think that's the way it's happening in the world sf5402: i think the problem is when you actually get down to an individual level you'll find that i mean i'm just talking about the i mean you'll find that every almost every single person wants to actually look like a western person so but i think on an individual level that's how it really works i mean it's it's a lot of try really hard to look American it's very i think nf5395: and the danger i think is what what someone said earlier that that in order to resist that people will retreat into things like you know er well for instance fundamentalist Hinduism which is happening in India er and what what people who are trying to resist it in India who are who are not going in that direction and don't agree with that direction are saying is that you know let us go our way it's not just a choice between er er kind of American global culture er and fundamentalist Hinduism but that there are alternatives we can take what we want from from any culture but maintain our own without retreating into this very er sf5396: i think it'd be nice if we could use our positive points and sort of celebrate difference and learn about each other's cultures you know i think there would be potential for that to happen and i think you know that'd be nice because what worries me about er with globalisation people started talking about this sense of losing their identity and that worries me as well because that could so easily just sort of tip over into notions you know sort of really racist notions of er and that you know if people feel too strongly they have to protect their own identity that's when you're gonna get a conflict and i you know that's what i think that the feel that their identity is is jeopardised but you know sf5400: what i'm saying people don't want to be pointed at because they're different you you want to fit in and so you conform and there is this whole sense i know you say that it but but i mean racism is built around the notion of assimilation that you should assimilate that you should look the same that it's accepted you know that if you want to be accepted you conform you conform to the norms and values of a particular culture which is western culture er because anything else is really not acceptable and so while it's nice as you say that maybe if people were to celebrate other cultures and actually look at cultures in positive ways what you can learn take the good from whichever ones you like but in in real terms that doesn't happen because there's an expected way that you're expected there's an expected expectation of you and particularly when you're a child and you're growing up and you don't want to be different and so the notion of west will always be influential because of grown colonialisation and er what has happened in slavery et cetera et cetera i mean in fact African people have in across the African diaspora there is this notion go back to our roots which was very heavily influential in the eighties you know hence movement became really big on the agenda because it was about identification people wanted to be identified for their for themselves as part of being part of a a melting pot if you like sf5402: i think what you said about people don't want to be pointed at as different when you find now i think er a Muslim woman wearing the full veil you it's like when you see it it's like oh horror god fundamental what's her husband done to her so it's that it is isn't it i mean you don't even myself being a Muslim and even when i see it a Muslim woman with a complete veil like face covered and stuff i don't think her cul-, well i mean her culture in that bit you think that she must be so fundamental and her husband must be so fundamental that she's forced into that veil i mean you don't think it might be her choice actually to 'cause it is her it is her religion it is her culture and there is a lot of pointing at if you do find a woman dressed in nf5395: yeah and you know very er rigid use of what of what liberation means er and the the example that comes to mind is actually it's you know in Iran when er when the the Shah er actually forced women to take the veil off you know well and he was doing that because of he he was aligned with er west the western powers and trying to push westernisation and trying to change to actually you know bring about western culture er part of that was as he saw it and as the west saw it liberating women but what an extraordinary way to liberate women to rip off their clothing you know it's not it's a very one dimensional view of what liberation means could i ask you because Japan has industrialised er and do you think how far do you think er western culture has also been absorbed with the industrialisation or not sf5398: yes er Japan is er not so completely with west er in some way yes we have traditional but er i think Japan is er peculiar specific er country because westernisation and the er Japan alteration of Japan is integration integration so we for example clothes er we ordinary we wear clothes just like the clothes but er the wedding ceremony er or er the graduation ceremony we wear the Japanese traditional kimono and er for example the the religion is er we you have many gods and er Christian and Bhuddist Shintuism Shintuism is a traditional Japanese it's a very very er i think it's a strange country for er for foreigners but we we are we are so accustomed to integration westernisation tradition really nf5395: i think Japan is such a wonderful example because you have fully followed capitalism advanced capitalism in Japan and but it's still very Japanese i mean you haven't lost Japanese culture it's very integrated er you've taken aspects of other cultures that you like but it's it's still very Japanese sf5402: yes things like the economy nf5395: yeah sf5402: it's it's strictly it's very Japanese and that's sf5398: economy but er the well as far as the women's as far as for women i think it's er behind of industrialised countries we still patriarchy insist in Japan and er still women's er expected to play role of mother yes it's very strict sf5396: they are here too and so they are in America it's you know i think i thinks that's a a common perception i've i've sort of certainly realised like er this term with meeting more and more sort of international students who said oh you know er it must be so much better for you here and i'm like well you know in in sort of some ways there may be sort of certain you know i mean maybe the economic situation and things like that that i you know i can't argue although you know we got it just as bad but you know i said well you know patriarchy isn't you know we're still talking about it i mean it's not as though it's been eradicated so and i think er people i've spoken to were actually quite surprised by that because they'd come here thinking they would see these empowered happy women all over the place who were all like you know no problems at all er they were kind of a bit surprised with that as in you know how it is so i think it's quite you know it's interesting nf5395: yeah i agree with there it's a mistake to think that er gender and power relations don't exist here sf5402: it's been an assumption though i think that it doesn't nf5395: that it does it's an assumption that it does you mean sf5402: no that it doesn't like when you get away from the west i think there's a big assumption that everyone all the women here must be very empowered and very powerful nf5395: and why why do you think that is why do people outside the west think women are you know liberated here when we know it's not true sf5396: male PR nf5395: well it is but i mean i mean it goes back to our first week you know looking at gender and imperialism because the west used to and still does use that whole idea of gender relations to maintain its power so so i mean people think that oh well obviously women in the west must be really free because they're criticising us for it but it's not true sf5401: i think it's er when structural adjustment programmes when they come to Africa they're more perceptive welcomed by women than by men because i in the in the programmes that you see in southern Africa it is mostly based on agriculture how to improve land and how to how to er through development so that you don't deteriorate land so much and have different forms of cultivation and blah blah blah teaching women but in order to do this programme you need to take the women out of the house to show her how to do these things and that causes family breakdowns men become aggressive you're never here the house is not clean the house it's not cooked the children you know what i mean so i think structural adjustment programmes in southern Africa i can speak of is is not so much well accepted by men than by women nf5395: really sf5401: yeah and er the the problem with women and structural problems also is they've got a very high expectation er of the result they've been promised if we come in we'll do this to you if you do the programme this way in which you haven't done it in the past this and this will be the result if it is not achieved women become very what's the English word su: disheartened sf5401: yeah dismayed disillusioned ach you people come in from the west and you told me it won't be like this you're nothing else but the imperialists and you know what i mean so when you come into a country that has not experienced structural adjustment programmes before you must be very careful and honest you know what i mean be honest with the people and say look we can try but if it doesn't work it will not work so it depends on you don't come in there if it will work and just give us a chance because this is how they come in through NGOs in in Namibia especially and women they are scared of their men and women they are scared of authority even the government and state so anything that fails will just make them not participate any more so it takes a while again to uplift the women's movements again mobilise women's activities you know what i mean so sometimes the expectations of the women are too high it's like everything will be fixed within a week and it's not like that they must be honest and say these things will take time the next five years your own daughter will maybe have a better standard or something of something so but that's not what's really happening so it is also how you come in with a policy and not just say the policy is there the money is there now give your feedback it's also the approach to the grass root level which i feel is important nf5395: but are you saying Kathleen that you think structural adjustment programmes are beneficial sf5401: i would say they're beneficial if there's clarity and what do you say transparency in the process but there is nf5395: why do you think they're beneficial sf5401: because it does help i mean there's an example i work in there's an NGO coming in through er say Oxfam UK Oxfam Canada and they would go to rural area but they will first approach the ministry they love working through the government first and then er women are the ones collecting the water in Namibia in the rural areas so they would target the ministry of water first and er say er we've got this new pipe system pumping system they can pump ten litres of water in a minute so we'll go out into the regions and er install them and show the locals how it worked and then the women don't have to go so far fetch they walk like five kilometres to fetch the water now they will go into the regions these consultants and they would install their pump and they'll show the men of the community how it is worked and then the men would go off into towns and go and work and then the women are the ones who operate these pumps within three months the pumps are broken and the consultant is gone the programme was just for three months nf5395: right but i mean sf5403: that's not a restructuring programme nf5395: you're talking about development projects i mean i was er sf5401: okay nf5395: i was asking about structural adjustment programmes which are trying to er restructure the economy so that you know they're trying to er stop government spending er liberalise the economy and improve basically improve capitalism improve profits that's what that's what it's trying to do increase profits er very sound economy er i mean actually very similar to what er president Reagan did in the US and what er prime minister Thatcher did in in the UK they're i mean actually they're structural adjustment programmes too they're just not called that but it's it was all about restructuring the economy getting rid of industry that needed subsidy everything had to be self financing er so it i mean it had been happening all over the world i mean even here people complained a lot about the effects of it er so i mean the the question is whether it has been beneficial in in third world countries and i mean sometimes it is and for some people for some groups it can be very beneficial sf5401: she said that the er the social welfare was a lot cut back in Namibia it's now increasing they increased the maintenance for illegitimate children and for women's work equal payment in the workforce you know things like that so it's not really that down it's an improvement i would say when it comes to adjustment nf5395: so the state's actually yeah sf5401: yeah nf5395: given services sf5397: but does that mean that structural programmes are sf5401: yeah they are but er two years a year after independence they came in strongly but now they're not so much any more 'cause some fail and some don't and some women don't want and something it's so you know but there's the the state itself has given more to welfare now they increased they spend more on and now with the war in the central Africa Namibia has sent troops there and this government they spend a lot of money on defence and the women are the first to speak up no why do you spend money on defence why don't you spend it on we-, or on er education on so that that movement of women's movement uprising in the country to speak against what they also need and what is necessary is stronger now than it was before sf5403: and it's a part of the globalisation sf5401: i would say so nf5395: so er do you feel that you know what globalisation is now [laughter] nf5395: not really well and you know again it's one of those concepts that people disagree on er although it's it's defined as increasing integration of the of the world economy er lots of people disagree about how that happens why it's happening and what its manifestations are and and they disagree about whether it's beneficial or or detrimental overall you know largely depending on on what their view of capitalist industrialisation is because really that's that's the root of globalisation and then there're all these other questions about whether how for that impact on culture too so it is a complex question but er i mean i think it's interesting because it's it's a very current concept and it's linked to the debt crisis and attempts to deal with the debt crisis in all parts of the world not just in the third world er ok would you like some notes of mine on gender and globalisation er who didn't get a a course evaluation form would you like to take one of those can you bring it next week please and also if you want to take if you want this list just a couple of things bring that back next week please and that is a review form and that's just a couple of handouts ok and have you have you all arranged to meet for next week you're all organised for next week your presentations