nm1157: today's topic [0.6] is [0.2] the [0.4] law relating to prostitution [1.
8] er [0.7] which is also [0.2] er to be the topic of our seminars [0.2] next 
[0.2] week [1.6] as you will see [0.5] er the focus [0.6] next [0.2] week [0.9] 
is really on [0.9] the issue of policy what should the [0.4] law's policy be in 
relation to prostitution [0.9] er and by policy we mean of course [0.8] what 
should the law be doing in order to deal with any [0.3] problems if any are 
found [0.5] relating to prostitution [0.5] er in order to er alleviate [0.2] 
such problems [0.6] and make the world better which is what policy is all about 
[1.1] er [0.5] because we're going to be discussing policy in seminars [0.2] er 
[0.2] the lectures i'm going to give you [0.4] are going to focus very much on 
the law [0.7] er and i suppose i will be perhaps holding back from policy 
issues [1.0] what this means of course is that [0.3] you mustn't assume that [0.
4] all the answers to next week's seminar [0.4] are to be found in today's 
lecture [1.0] er today's lecture is going to give you some of the material for 
next week's seminar [0.3] but you're going to have to go further [0.5] er [0.2] 
in the reading which we provide for you and 
indeed in your own [0.4] thoughts [2.1] right [0.2] prostitution and the law [1.
0] er [0.3] the first question i suppose is [1.0] what is the law trying to 
achieve [0.8] er in relation to prostitution [1.4] er if you remember we [0.5] 
talked about the rationale of offences [0.8] er in relation to other offences 
[0.7] and er it's fairly easy to work out what the law is trying to achieve [0.
2] in relation to murder [0.6] or rape or theft [0.3] the objective is obvious 
[1.1] what should the law try and achieve in relation to prostitution [1.7] 
well [0.4] i i think when much of our law was formulated [0.4] er [0.4] this 
issue may not have been addressed in precisely those terms [1.0] however [0.5] 
er there was a large scale [0.2] review of the law [0.9] er between [0.4] 
nineteen-fifty-three and nineteen-fifty-seven [1.0] er [0.2] by a committee [1.
4] chaired by [0.2] er a man called Lord Wolfenden [1.1] er [0.2] which had the 
job given the job by government [0.5] of reviewing [0.6] er the law relating to 
[0.3] er homosexual offences [0.2] and prostitution [1.7] and er [0.4] in order 
to review the law [0.8] the Wolfenden committee [0.6] started out by [0.2] er 
[1.3] trying to think about what the law should be 
trying to achieve in this area [1.0] er and it came up with a formula [1.2] er 
which i've quoted on the sheet [0.7] er but which i will read to you now [1.1] 
Wolfenden said [0.2] committee said [0.5] er the role of the law should be to 
preserve [0.2] public order and decency [1.7] to protect citizens from what is 
indefensive or injurious [0.9] and to provide sufficient safeguards [0.2] 
against exploitation [0.4] and corruption of others [0.9] particularly [0.4] 
those who are especially [0.4] vulnerable [0.5] because they are young in mind 
or body [0.8] inexperienced [0.9] or in a state of special [0.5] physical [0.4] 
official [0.2] or economic [0.9] dependence [1.7] er the committee then went on 
and said [0.6] it is not in our view [0.4] the function of the law to intervene 
[0.9] in the private lives of citizens [0.6] or [0.6] it is not the function of 
the law to seek to enforce [0.5] any particular [0.5] pattern of behaviour [1.
3] farther at least than it is necessary to carry out for the purposes we have 
outlined [2.4] what is the committee saying there [0.4] er [0.8] and [1.6] when 
we've worked out what the committee is saying can we sort of proceed from that 
[0.5] to 
work out what the law should be [2.4] first of all they they they say [1.0] it 
is the role of the law to preserve [0.3] public order and decency [2.0] and i 
think first of all the the reference to public order [1.1] er indicates if you 
like that [0.5] er [0.2] the world can be divided up into public places [0.5] 
which are shared [0.8] by [0.4] a number of us as citizens [0.7] and [0.4] 
private places which are occupied by us alone [0.4] or those we choose to be 
with [1.1] er [0.3] i suppose the legal theory [0.2] of the public place [0.7] 
er [0.3] which [0.4] the Wolfenden committee expressed [0.5] is that [0.3] 
because the public place is shared [0.8] er it's important that the [0.2] use 
that any individual [1.0] puts the public place to [1.0] doesn't unnecessarily 
infringe [0.7] on [0.3] the way others [0.5] wish to use the public place [1.5] 
i suppose in relation to prostitution [0.8] er the Wolfenden committee would be 
[0.7] thinking about [1.2] ways of er practising prostitution which are carried 
in public [0.7] soliciting particularly on the street [1.1] and [0.5] when the 
Wolfenden committee talked about preserving [0.2] public order and decency [1.
0] er they were probably 
saying well [2.3] er [0.5] soliciting in a public place has some impact [0.4] 
on those around [0.7] er other people mightn't want to see it they might 
consider it indecent [0.8] er that might be a good reason for criminalizing [0.
6] soliciting for prostitution in public [0.5] because [0.4] public space has 
to be shared [2.1] the other side of the coin of course to the notion of a 
public place [0.6] er is [0.3] private place [0.9] and er [1.4] if i just [0.2] 
jump to the end of the quote from Wolfenden [1.1] er [0.2] the committee said 
that [0.7] it's not the function of the law to intervene in the private lives 
of citizens [0.7] or to enforce any particular [0.4] code of conduct [1.0] the 
committee seems to be saying okay [0.2] in public you've got [0.2] to act in a 
way that keeps everybody else happy [0.5] but there is a private sphere [1.4] 
within the private sphere the law should respect autonomy [0.5] shouldn't try 
and enforce some code about what should or shouldn't be [0.5] done [0.7] 
develop a sphere in which you can make your own decisions [2.1] er [2.9] if we 
go back to the the [0.4] key er the core of the quote rather [0.6] we find 
that [0.7] er [0.2] the Wolfenden committee were [0.8] concerned about 
providing sufficient [0.3] safeguards against exploitation and [0.2] corruption 
of others [3.2] now [0.2] those words are loaded aren't they [0.2] exploitation 
and corruption they sound bad [1.0] er if i went out into the streets in namex 
today and i said [0.3] should the law try and prevent exploitation and 
corruption [0.6] people would probably say [0.2] yes [1.7] they are very 
problematic notions though [0.5] er particularly [0.7] when we think about them 
in terms of [1.0] the Wolfenden committee's other comments [1.5] what does 
exploitation mean [0.2] i suppose exploitation means using [0.6] somebody else 
[0.5] for some purpose of your own [1.7] er [0.3] but of course [0.7] 
exploitation in that sense occurs all the time doesn't it [0.5] er you're 
exploiting me [0.4] because [0.8] managing to stay awake during this lecture [0.
8] writing lots of notes [0.4] repeating it all in the exam is a necessary 
stage [0.4] to you getting that much desired [0.3] B-M-W and stripy suit in a 
few years' time [0.9] [laughter] er [0.2] so you are exploiting me the 
university's exploiting me [0.3] er by 
employing me [0.6] er i exploit [0.7] er [0.2] i suppose you could say i 
exploit [1.3] whoever it is who cooks my food [0.7] er or or i exploit the 
person who [0.6] er [0.4] shears the sheep in New Zealand or something to 
provide the jumper [0.4] jumper i wear [1.3] [laughter] whatever [0.4] so 
exploitation happens all the time and in fact it's just er [0.5] an aspect of 
modern society isn't it [0.6] the whole idea of society is we live together [0.
3] we interact react we complement each other in the functions we perform [0.6] 
you can call it [0.5] mutual exploitation [0.9] but it's also a normal aspect 
of modern society [1.4] so exploitation is problematic [0.9] er [0.4] in 
relation to prostitution [0.8] is it really clear who exploits who [1.5] well 
[1.0] er [0.2] some people would argue that the male customers exploit [0.3] er 
the woman who provides [0.4] the prostitution services [1.2] if however [0.3] 
er you look at [1.5] some [0.2] er feminist analyses of prostitution [0.9] they 
would disagree with this [0.8] er if you look at er a book [0.2] called Working 
Women by Arlene Macleod [0.9] er [1.1] when she was at this university [0.7] er 
[1.6] she talked to prostitutio-, [0.2] prostitutes and 
prostitutes say [0.6] oh we're in this job because we like it [0.7] er it's by 
far the most satisfactory way for us [0.3] to earn a living [0.4] to make a 
reasonable amount of money [0.4] to keep control of our own lives [0.3] and to 
have the sort of flexible lifestyle we want [0.6] if you ever ask prostitutes 
why they do the job they're not admitting to being exploited very often [0.6] 
many of them it's just a rational [0.3] choice [0.4] er according to the 
options available to them [1.6] er so it's not absolutely clear that the male 
customer exploits the woman [0.8] and indeed [0.2] er you might say it's the 
other way round [0.8] er if you look at the areas where prostitution is [0.2] 
is carried out you may say well [0.6] here's the man gone for a drink after 
work on his way home [1.1] er he's presented with a temptation [0.6] er is that 
the woman exploiting him [0.5] so exploitation is a problematic concept [1.7] 
er [0.7] exploitation can also be seen [0.5] er in the relationship [0.7] 
between [0.2] the [0.4] so-called [0.2] er [0.2] pimp or ponce [0.8] who is a 
sort of stereotypical [0.7] figure [0.4] er the man who lives off the earnings 
of 
prostitution [1.2] and er [0.4] if one went further through the Wolfenden 
committee report [0.8] er you would see that [0.2] that committee did think it 
appropriate [0.8] to maintain [0.2] penalties [0.2] on [1.0] er men who lived 
[0.4] off [0.3] the money women made by prostitution [1.9] if you like the the 
man figure was seen as an exploiter [1.1] er [0.2] but again that is rather 
problematic isn't it [0.8] er [0.3] all of us who earn money [0.6] er well for 
many of us who earn money [0.5] er we choose to support somebody else [0.7] 
very common for [0.6] er husbands [0.7] or wives to support their partners 
isn't it [0.5] where one person in the family works [0.7] certainly [0.3] 
common for adults to support [0.6] er fo-, fo-, for parents to support grown up 
children [0.8] so [0.9] er we don't say oh well there's exploitation in this 
relationship just because one person who earns money [0.9] pays the expenses of 
[0.3] the family or or the couple [1.8] the problem er exploitation then is 
problematic [1.2] er [0.3] it's also true when we come to look at the law 
relating to [0.2] er living off the earnings of prostitution [0.7] that [0.3] 
er [0.3] the offence of living off can be 
provi-, er can be committed [0.8] where a person who receives money from the 
prostitute [0.7] provides [0.2] some sort of service [1.2] er [0.7] modern 
prostitution may be committed [0.7] through er massage parlours [0.9] or escort 
agencies [1.6] both sorts of organization may be fronts for prostitution [1.2] 
er the people who [0.6] organize those [0.2] er [0.4] those er [0.5] businesses 
[1.0] can be found guilty of living off the earnings of prostitution [1.3] er 
but are they exploiters [1.0] er [0.6] certainly many would argue that they're 
not [0.6] they're providing [0.2] necessary [0.5] ancillary business services 
[1.0] in order to allow a prostitute to [0.4] carry out [0.5] her or his 
business [0.6] er in a way which is [0.4] safe [0.2] and makes [0.2] er 
business sense makes commercial sense [1.1] so again [0.9] exploitation is a 
tricky concept isn't it [2.2] er [1.1] corruption's a tricky concept as well [1.
4] i think the [0.3] the essence of corruption [1.2] er is [0.9] er exerting an 
influence on somebody [0.5] which in some [0.2] way [0.5] degrades them [0.8] 
or makes them [0.2] worse [2.0] er [0.6] and i suppose here the Wolfenden 
committee when they when they said the law should deal with corruption [1.4] er 
was probably 
concerned with [0.9] er an individual who might [0.8] recruit [1.1] er [0.2] 
others into prostitution [0.9] persuade them perhaps with [0.2] offer of high 
earning [1.2] er or a glamorous lifestyle or whatever to [0.5] take part in 
prostitution [2.5] well [1.7] er again i think many people have a sort of gut 
reaction that that is a bad thing to do [0.8] there is a problem though which 
is this that [1.0] we can only call that corruption [0.9] if we say that [0.3] 
the non-prostitute lifestyle is fine [1.8] and the prostitute lifestyle is in 
some way bad or degraded [1.1] we're talking about corruption we're talking 
about an in-, an influence making something worse or degrading them [0.9] so [0.
3] we must be making a value judgement mustn't we that [0.5] you're a young 
person [0.2] coming to university that's fine [0.8] if somebody persuades you 
to go and work as a prostitute to earn money [0.2] to support your university 
career in some way you've been degraded [1.8] and of course once you make that 
value judgement [0.6] er aren't you infringing [1.0] one of the [0.3] Wolfenden 
committee's later principles [0.7] which is 
that [0.6] er the law should not [0.2] seek to enforce [0.5] any particular [0.
2] pattern of behaviour [1.5] or [0.6] are you also infringing [0.3] the 
Wolfenden committee principle [0.8] that [0.2] er [0.7] there should be an area 
of [0.9] private [0.2] life [0.7] in which the law should play no role [2.0] er 
[0.2] as i said when we talk about [0.7] saying [0.2] there's an area a private 
sphere in which the law should not [0.6] er i-, i-, [0.4] in which the law 
should not involve itself [0.3] we're really talking about protecting autonomy 
[0.7] and autonomy [0.4] means though [0.2] the right and ability [0.4] to make 
your own choices [0.7] about how you lead your life [1.8] so it's very 
difficult to square this notion of preventing corruption [0.7] with this idea 
of letting individuals ultimately make their own choices [1.3] er [0.9] at the 
end of the day i suppose [0.6] if autonomy is to be [0.8] real and valuable [1.
0] it must be [0.7] autonomy which allows you to make bad choices as well as 
good choices [1.1] mustn't it [0.9] that's the whole point of autonomy it is up 
to you [0.8] the the one right you [0.2] you [0.2] the essential right you have 
to make your own choices about your own 
life [0.9] it would be very strange if you said oh you've got autonomy [0.9] as 
long as you make the right choices [0.4] if you start to decide to do anything 
bad oh no [0.4] then you lose your autonomy that's not autonomy at all is it 
it's a sham [2.0] well [0.2] that's a brief introduction to the [0.3] er [1.5] 
to the er philosophical underpinnings of our current law [1.0] er [0.6] as 
we'll see when we go through the law [0.2] er [1.0] some of these 
contradictions which i've suggested become [0.2] more and more apparent [2.1] 
let's move on and talk about [1.1] what is [0.2] a prostitute [3.1] rather 
interesting isn't it that [1.2] er [0.5] if [1.1] er [0.3] anything is to be [0.
2] the subject of law [1.3] if it is to be something that the law [0.2] deals 
with [1.5] er it must be possible to define it [2.9] and [0.9] if we are going 
to have laws [0.5] relating to prostitution [1.3] er which distinguish [0.7] er 
a prostitute from other people [0.6] and treat a prostitute differently from 
other people [1.4] we do need a some [0.6] satisfying reason for that we we've 
got to have a reason for treating a prostitute differently haven't we [1.1] and 
that suggests that [0.4] 
we must be able to create a definition of prostitution [1.2] and a definition 
of prostitute [0.3] that distinguishes [1.1] the prostitute [0.8] and his or 
her practice [0.6] from [0.7] the conduct of other members of society [0.9] 
which is [0.6] approved of or at least [0.2] tolerated [1.1] yeah [0.7] if 
we're going to have criminal law relating to prostitution [0.5] there must be 
some way of defining prostitution that makes it different [0.6] from [0.2] the 
run of ordinary conduct [0.7] let's have a quick look at what the law says 
about the definition of prostitution [1.0] and i'm going to look at er [0.5] a 
run of four cases [1.0] er [0.4] all of the references to the-, these will be 
found on your handout [1.1] which will er [0.6] arrive in due course [0.8] i 
wonder if it really will be delivered here [1.7] maybe not who knows [1.0] er 
first case was a case in nineteen-eighteen [0.2] called [0.2] De Monk [1.2] De 
Monk nineteen-eighteen [1.3] er [2.3] this case er concerned er [0.2] a [0.9] 
prosecution of er [0.2] a lady [1.8] er who [0.5] was ch-, charged [0.2] with 
an old offence [1.1] of er [0.6] encouraging [0.6] the prostitution [0.8] of er 
somebody else [0.6] so so she was charged with 
encouraging [0.5] prostitution [1.9] and er [0.3] the evidence against the 
defendant [0.2] was quite simple [1.1] er the defendant was the mother of a 
fourteen year old girl [1.9] and she in return for money [1.1] had allowed [0.
2] er [0.3] a male visitor [0.9] to their home [0.8] to spend some time [0.8] 
er with this girl [0.2] in an upstairs bedroom [1.1] that was the evidence [0.
8] money changed hands [0.6] male visitor just allowed to go to an upstairs 
room with a fourteen year old girl [1.1] er nobody's saying what went on [0.2] 
up there [1.2] er [0.7] in [0.6] her defence [0.9] er the mother [0.2] had the 
girl medically examined [0.9] er and medical evidence suggested that the girl 
was a virgin [0.4] who apparently had not had full sexual intercourse [1.9] so 
the argument was [1.3] prostitution is surely about selling [0.5] the act of 
sex [1.4] this young child apparently hasn't had sex [1.0] sex can't have taken 
place [0.7] therefore there cannot have been an act of prostitution [1.9] er [0.
8] the court dismissed that argument [1.5] er and they said this [1.3] they 
said [0.2] prostitution is proved [0.7] if it is shown that the woman offers 
offers her body [0.5] commonly [0.7] for acts of 
lewdness [1.1] for payment in [0.2] return [2.0] i should say mysteriously that 
the the phrase acts of lew-, lewdness L-E [0.4] L-E-W-D-N-E-S-S [0.5] seems to 
have been missed off the sheet but it it should be there [0.9] er [1.2] what 
they were saying was that [0.6] i suppose the court was satisfied that this 
bloke wasn't going up to this upstairs room with this young girl [0.6] er to 
look at her stamp collection [0.6] and as as long as the court was satisfied 
that some sort of [0.3] lewd sexual activity took place [0.6] er [0.5] that 
could be prostitution even if there was not full [0.2] sexual intercourse [2.1] 
er [3.3] there's a problem here isn't there [1.9] on the one hand [0.5] er [0.
2] i'm i'm sure we all recognize there are many different ways of [0.5] getting 
sexual gratification [0.8] er and indeed [1.0] in relation to youngsters of 
that sort of age there are many acts which [0.4] would be considered an 
indecent assault on a fourteen year old [0.6] if committed by somebody else [1.
9] but [0.5] if you move away from the sort of bedrock of sexual intercourse 
there is a question well [0.7] what is an act of lewdness for 
sexual gratification [1.0] er [0.4] we seem to be defining the act of 
prostitution according to [0.5] er one's motives [0.6] according to [0.8] what 
sort of feelings one has in relation to an act [0.9] but it does become a bit 
tricky doesn't it [0.7] er [0.2] i i've often puzzled if there's any difference 
between [0.7] sexual and other pleasures [0.7] er [2.3] pe-, people like to 
have bodily contact in various ways don't they [0.2] er and enjoy it [0.6] and 
what about rugby players getting involved in a rugby scrum [0.7] [laughter] er 
[0.8] they may or may not get some sort of pleasure from [0.5] [laughter] just 
the sort of of [0.7] closeness and camaraderie and sweat of a rugby scrum [0.8] 
er [1.6] who's to say what i-, [0.3] if that gratification is in any way [0.4] 
different from other types of pleasure [0.5] to sexual [0.5] there are people 
who like to er [0.4] dress up in nappies and [0.3] [laughter] er [0.5] be given 
er [0.2] baths by [0.2] persons who pretend to be nannies and things now [0.9] 
er for some reason or other we consider that to be a form of sexual 
gratification but [0.2] is it really [0.2] is it [0.4] or or is it really just 
a 
gratification of some other need [1.1] it's hard to say isn't it [0.7] er [0.9] 
you know if you go for a [0.3] an ordinary straightforward massage in order to 
cure your aching [0.6] muscles [0.3] you may find that very [0.2] enjoyable and 
relaxing [0.2] is that i-, [0.5] is that clearly different from [0.5] other 
sorts of behaviour you might commit that [0.2] er [0.2] indulge in with a 
partner [0.4] which might be identified as sexual [0.4] it's tricky isn't it [1.
7] er [1.7] if we have moved away from sexual intercourse [0.7] er of course [1.
5] we may of course er as as well [0.2] question well what the l-, what's the 
law all about [0.6] er [0.3] one possible [0.8] er rationale for the laws 
relating to prostitution [0.5] which have been offered [0.5] er focus very much 
on the sexual act [0.9] er [0.2] one argument [1.1] sometimes put by er reli-, 
religious bodies is that [0.7] er [1.3] sex is something which should be [0.5] 
er indulged in in a a relationship [0.8] linked to the raising of a family [0.
7] er linked to the er [0.2] exchange of love between parties [0.6] and that [1.
3] prostitution degrades that [0.8] er sort of sacred relationship [0.6] by [0.
7] putting a price on it [0.8] they also [0.4] degrade 
particular [0.4] relationships [0.4] because the effect of having prostitution 
around [0.4] may be to tempt [0.7] one of the parties to a [0.8] sort of pukka 
loving relationship to stray and to be disloyal [2.0] but [0.9] if the if if 
the reason for outlawing prostitution focuses on some sort of sacred notion of 
the sex act [0.7] then why extend prostitution to other sorts of [0.6] quasi-
sexual behaviour [0.7] there's a question there isn't there [1.6] okay let's 
move on [0.9] let's er [0.7] jump fifty years or so [0.6] to a case called Webb 
in nineteen-sixty-four [2.6] er [0.9] what happened in Webb was that er [3.3] 
er [0.8] there was er an attempt [0.2] to [1.2] er entrap [1.9] er [0.5] some 
er [0.8] people who were running a er massage parlour [1.6] and er [1.8] er [0.
3] a p-, police officer went to the massage parlour [0.8] and er at the massage 
parlour he was offered [0.9] er [0.9] sexual services [0.6] in the way of 
masturbation [1.8] er [0.8] in the er time-honoured fashion the police officer 
made his excuses and left [1.2] [laughter] er [0.6] but then a a prosecution 
was brought [0.4] against the [0.7] er proprietor of the massage parlour [1.5] 
er real-, i-, i-, [0.7] er [0.3] for er i think er keeping 
a brothel [0.9] and of course you can only keep a brothel we'll look at the 
offence later on [0.4] if it's premises where prostitution is practised [0.9] 
the big question in the Webb case was [0.9] you've got premises [0.9] 
masturbation for money takes place there [0.6] does that amount to pros-, [0.2] 
to pros-, [0.6] to prostitution [1.7] well [0.8] er obviously [1.3] on the 
basis of the case we've already looked at [0.2] the case of De Monk [0.8] er it 
doesn't have to be absolute sex [0.4] but other acts of lewdness would do [1.3] 
and i suppose [0.9] masturbation's pretty lewd 
nm1157: okay so so the fact that it [0.2] that that it was [0.4] something 
other than sexual intercourse wasn't a defence in this case [0.6] the 
defendants however went a little bit further and they said well [0.5] er the 
nature of masturbation is something that the woman does to the man [1.0] it's 
not a case of the woman offering [0.2] her body [0.7] for acts of sexual 
gratification [1.1] er [0.2] rather [0.4] er [1.0] you know it's not the man 
doing something to her a-, as apparently De Monk [0.5] it's the man who's 
passive and she's 
doing something to the man they suggested that made a difference [1.0] well [1.
3] er [0.2] Lord Parker the er Lord Chief Justice and indeed that's what L-C-J 
means Lord Chief Justice [0.8] er got rather carried away in dealing with this 
case he said er [0.8] [laughter] prostitution includes offering to participate 
[0.4] in physical acts of indecency [0.5] for sexual gratification of [0.2] men 
[0.6] it cannot matter he said whether she whips the man [laughter] or the man 
whips her [0.6] it cannot matter et cetera [0.5] now the funny thing about this 
is that there was no question of anybody whipping anybody [1.0] [laughter] so 
er [1.1] this little quote i'm afraid er [0.8] er in-, indicates more about 
what was going on in [0.3] good old Lord Parker's mind at the time [laughter] 
rather [0.5] than the facts of the case [0.6] er [0.6] but [0.2] again what 
he's really saying is that [0.2] er [0.8] i-, it doesn't matter who does what 
to whom as long long as there is some 
sexual act [1.7] and again that does lead us to to question [0.6] er [2.3] what 
what is [0.4] what is it about prostitution we don't like [0.7] er [0.5] for [0.
9] people who've argued that prostitution is exploitative [1.0] er [0.5] i 
think w-, one of the [1.0] one of the strands of the argument is that [0.6] the 
woman is in some way violated in the act of prostitution for money [1.3] 
clearly if [0.2] if the w-, if the woman [0.3] does the act to the man there's 
really no violation of her in that is there [0.9] er and again [0.2] we begin 
to slide away from [1.4] the the bedrock of of [0.6] make it be-, it being 
clear [0.2] why we er in some way [0.2] prohibit prostitution [1.0] well i'll 
tell you what let me stop there for er a handout dishing out interlude [0.6] 
and i'll i'll apo-, apologize to our cameraman namex for er [0.2] breaking 
things up is that all right namex 
nm1157: okay two handouts gone round [0.2] er [0.2] the orange and the er 
yellow [0.2] the yellow relates to today's lecture [0.6] there's a [0.2] a 
third handout which is called namex [0.2] Criminal Statutes [0.6] er instead of 
dishing those out there's a box of 
them [0.8] er that is a white [0.7] quite thick document [0.3] there's one by 
each of the exit doors [0.7] er if you could grab one as you go out that would 
be handy and i will put er if anybody doesn't get one i'll put the pile in the 
law school [0.2] okay so [0.5] grab the statutes as you leave [2.3] right [0.2] 
we were talking about the definition of prostitution [1.6] er [1.8] the [1.6] 
definition has been further considered [1.9] er [0.3] in a couple of recent 
cases [0.8] er first of all for the case of McFarland in nineteen-ninety-four 
[1.3] er [2.4] this case concerned [1.2] er somebody who was pretending to be a 
prostitute [0.4] in order to obtain money by deception [1.1] er [0.2] fairly 
common that er [1.2] to to for for women who are involved in prostitution or 
their accomplices to [0.6] er use a promise of prostitution as a way of 
obtaining [0.5] money from [0.4] er gullible customers [0.9] er it's rather a 
safe er [0.3] area in which to obtain money of course because [0.6] er you 
would need a bit of nerve to go and stand at the st-, counter at the police 
station and say well [0.4] er er [0.4] this bloke met me in a club and said 
would you m-, 
like to meet er a girl for a hundred pounds and i said yes and [0.6] i handed 
over the money and then [0.3] nothing happened you know [0.5] people tend to er 
not want to admit to the police that they resort to prostitutes [1.0] er 
however in this case [1.1] er i think probably by entrapment [0.6] er it became 
apparent that [0.2] er there was a scam [0.7] whereby [0.2] er [1.1] er a woman 
[0.6] er [0.7] pretended to be offering herself for active prostitution [0.6] 
er [0.5] once she'd obtained money from her customers [0.3] she would then 
disappear [0.3] out of a side door [0.6] er and no act of [0.2] no act of sexu-,
wo-, whatever would take place [1.6] er [0.8] the question arose in this case 
whether [0.2] what she did [0.9] er could be considered an act of prostitution 
[0.9] apparently offering [0.5] herself for sexual services for money [1.3] 
even though [0.2] er there was no intention on her part [0.3] to carry out such 
sexual services [1.4] er the court [0.5] er said yes this could amount to 
prostitution [1.6] and they said er [0.2] the definition of prostitution [0.4] 
refers to a woman who offers sexual services [1.1] in return for money [0.8] 
indeed that 
terminology had been used in the earlier cases [0.8] er and [0.8] they said 
that er [0.4] the offer [0.4] was not dependent [0.4] upon any intention [0.5] 
to carry out [0.7] the act [1.1] well [1.0] i suppose [0.2] this case is rather 
puzzling [1.4] whereas [0.2] er [0.8] the sort of simple broad question [1.2] 
should this sort of behaviour be criminalized [1.1] pretending to offer sexual 
services in order to obtain money [0.8] er maybe most people would say yes or 
some people might say well it's the [0.4] customer's own silly fault [0.4] but 
but either way we can see some reason for criminalizing this conduct [1.4] 
whether however this conduct should be [0.4] categorized as [0.6] er 
prostitution and criminal on that ground [0.6] rather than deception [0.9] er 
an offence [0.5] normally seen as protecting personal property [0.7] is another 
matter [0.9] er [1.5] i think [0.2] to some extent the court was influenced [0.
2] by [0.6] er [1.2] the sorts of offences that [0.4] may be committed in 
relation to prostitution [0.9] er as we shall see [0.7] er the most visible [0.
3] offence relating to prostitution [0.5] er relates to loitering [0.4] or 
soliciting [0.6] on the street [1.2] er and i 
suppose the court might well have been [0.8] mindful [0.7] that [0.3] er [0.2] 
if they said well [1.3] it's er [0.2] you're not a prostitute [0.7] if you 
never intend to go through with the act [0.4] might provide a rather easy 
excuse [0.4] to women who are picked up [0.4] loitering or soliciting [1.1] 
rather strange if a woman was picked up on the street for this offence and she 
said [0.3] oh no oh i'm not going to have sex with these people i'm just trying 
to rip them off [0.9] [laughter] er [0.6] to some extent i think the court may 
have been influenced in extending the definition of prostitution [0.5] er by 
that [0.3] need to try and prevent an easy loophole [0.2] or an easy way out [1.
9] er finally er we come to a case called er [0.2] D-P-P which of course means 
Director of Public Prosecutions [1.3] er [0.6] against [0.3] Thaw [0.3] in 
nineteen-ninety-four [1.1] er [1.0] the defendant in this case [1.8] was a man 
[1.8] hanging around [1.9] trying perhaps to persuade people to have some form 
of sex with him [0.3] for money [1.1] and he was charged [0.2] with [0.2] the 
offence i've just mentioned [0.7] of loitering or soliciting [0.6] in 
a public place [0.4] for the purpose of prostitution [1.5] got to the 
magistrates' court and er [1.3] the chairman of the bench looked over [0.5] his 
spectacles at this person in the dock and said [1.4] that's not a prostitute [0.
6] that's a man [0.8] [laughter] case dismissed [1.8] er [1.0] well the the 
prosecutor [0.9] the s-, Crown prosecutor was rather [1.0] er rather unhappy 
about this [0.2] gone to all the trouble of arresting this person [1.4] taken a 
statement all that lot brought them to court [0.3] got the Crown prosecutor 
there and the [0.4] case was chucked out just on the [0.4] the basis of the [0.
2] defendant's gender [0.9] so er the c-, the case went to the divisional court 
[0.8] that's the case the the the court that hears [0.6] appeals on questions 
of law from the magistrates' court [1.5] er and indeed the divisional court 
confirmed [0.5] er that the magistrate had been quite right [1.1] er [0.8] the 
er divisional court looked at the statute [1.1] er they looked at the report of 
the Wolfenden committee that had proposed [0.8] a reformulation of the 
loitering and soliciting offence [0.8] and they said 
that [0.8] clearly the term [0.3] common prostitute [0.4] is supposed [0.2] to 
refer to women [1.1] er [1.1] and they said it was clearly the intention of the 
Wolfenden committee [0.6] who proposed the reformulation of the offence [0.6] 
that er it should be [0.3] the nuisance caused by women [0.9] er which should 
be the object of the offence [2.1] well [0.6] what could we say about this [0.
4] er [1.4] i suppose a s-, simple [0.3] er very [1.1] crude comment might be 
[1.3] er the law seems to more concerned with [0.6] stereotypes [0.6] rather 
than [0.2] conduct [3.1] if we go back to my early lectures when we [0.3] 
talked about [0.9] an objective of the of the criminal law to avoid harm [1.5] 
er it's true isn't it that [1.5] if [0.8] a particular sort of conduct can be 
said to be harmful in some way [0.6] it's rarely going to make much difference 
whether the conduct is committed by a man or a woman [1.5] er or indeed by any 
other sort of different categorizations of the human race you might use [1.2] i 
mean either the conduct's harmful or it's not [1.1] and you might say the same 
about [0.2] er [0.5] loitering in the street for prostitution [1.0] er if 
loitering 
in the street or [0.3] soliciting in the street is something which we as a 
community [0.3] don't like to see [0.5] which we think degrades our public 
places [0.7] we find indecent [0.5] er [0.9] surely it's going to do so whether 
or not whether it's a er a woman who who does it or a man or a group of women 
or a group of men [1.8] er [0.3] so [0.2] that's very strange [0.8] er [1.6] 
why should the law focus on stereotypes [1.0] well [0.3] i think it's true 
historically [0.5] that [0.5] er it was the woman [0.6] who was the object of 
the law [1.7] er it's rather interesting that er [0.7] in the middle of the 
nineteenth century [1.3] er there was er an attempt [0.9] to [0.5] er [0.2] 
deal with some of the problems associated with prostitution [0.8] er through 
some acts called the Contagious Diseases Acts [0.9] very interesting acts [0.8] 
er the Contagious Diseases Acts were [0.6] focused on [0.4] er naval and army 
bases [1.4] and [0.3] they 
provided for [0.4] er [0.2] women [0.8] who were found to be [0.4] er involved 
in prostitution [0.6] in the vicinity [0.3] of naval and army bases [0.6] they 
provided for these women to be [1.0] forcibly taken from the streets [0.5] to 
be subject to medical checks [0.5] for er sexually transmissible diseases [0.7] 
er and subject to compulsory cures if they were found to be infected [2.4] and 
the law impacted on the women only [1.1] well er [0.3] it's rather interesting 
[0.3] er the Contagious Diseases Acts were rather controversial [0.8] and er [0.
2] a commission was set up to look into the operation of the acts [0.9] and one 
of the issues which the com-, [0.3] commission considered [0.8] was whether the 
[0.2] compulsory medical checks [0.5] should apply to [0.4] both sides of the 
prostitution equation [1.1] er this was quickly dismissed [0.9] they said [0.8] 
well of course you can't do that [0.6] the men are only er [0.3] giving bent to 
quite 
natural desires [0.6] er whereas it's the degrading women who are [0.3] 
committing the unnatural act of offering themselves for sex [0.6] so [0.5] if 
you like way back in the middle of the nineteenth century we have two very 
clear stereotypes of [0.6] the man well who's to blame him [0.7] you know he's 
just lumbered with this sort of er [0.8] sexual desire built into to his nature 
[0.6] the woman on the other hand is a depraved person who's exploiting the 
unfortunate man [0.7] er and er [0.5] dragging him into [0.2] er [0.4] evil 
ways [1.5] and [0.4] i think it's true historically that er prostitution has 
focused on the activities of [0.3] women [0.7] and not men perhaps we'll return 
to that [0.6] next [0.2] time [1.0] thanks for coming don't forget to er to [0.
9] pick up your namex statutes as you leave