nf0951: to start with [0.2] er [1.0] i gather that Newton-Raphson having happened at A-level was rather a long time ago [0.6] and you had a bit of fun with it on Friday [1.9] so i thought i'd just give you a [0.2] quick reminder [1.2] the idea is we've got some sort of function [0.2] that crosses zero [1.3] what we want to know is the point [1.4] X-star [0.4] such that [1.2] F-of-X- star equals zero [0.4] you shouldn't need to write this down by the way [1.0] er [1.3] and there are all sorts of ways we could find that what Newton-Raphson depends on is saying [0.7] well [0.4] we'll take a guess [0.3] at where we're starting so we'll call that guess [1.2] X-zero [1.0] and we'll evaluate [1.9] F- of-X-zero [1.9] and then we have to decide what to do [0.8] having seen what size it is [0.4] and Newton-Raphson is based on the principle that what we do is look at the tangent at that point [1.7] and we follow the tangent down [0.9] and that will bring us closer to this root [0.9] so we follow the tangent down to X-one [2.8] well [0.3] [1.1] one way you can think about [2.0] that obviously the tangent [0.7] is [0.9] F-of-X-nought which is the gradient [0.5] and what is the gradient well the gradient is [1.2] F-of-X-nought [1.2] minus zero [1.8] divided by [2.0] if we have mm [0.3] i don't know if we really need an origin let's put an origin somewhere [0.4] but it's divided by [0.9] X- nought minus X-one [1.6] so one way of thinking of Newton-Raphson is precisely this that we're taking a triangle [0.7] we then do the same thing we come here [1.2] follow the gradient up and we're [0.2] very near a [0.2] nearly at the spot [2.3] so conceptually that's what Newton-Raphson's doing if you land up forgetting it [0.8] that's one way of remembering it if [0.4] if you like the geometrical way of remembering it [0.6] an alternative is the thing we were lo-, talking about a lot in the asymptotics [0.3] which was series expansions [0.8] so [0.3] what we're interested in [1.0] is this point where F-of-X equals zero [0.6] well let's do an expansion that's approximately equal to [1.1] F-of- [0.4] X-nought [0.5] plus [2.2] X-star [0.2] minus [2.2] er which way around is it X-nought minus [0.3] X-star [2.7] and then the first derivative [7.9] and [2.1] in either case what we do is we basically just solve [0.8] those equations so if we look at this equation [1.1] what we're saying is that [1.4] X-star [0.2] minus [1.0] X-nought [2.3] so i've changed the sign [1. 0] equals [1.5] F-of- [0.4] X-nought over [2.0] F-dashed-of-X-nought [1.8] and then [6.3] [0.8] we're going to [2.7] actually i have a feeling [0.3] you might have to check me on the signs on this one [1.4] off [0.2] the top of my head [2.6] we've got [1.6] a solution so typically we take this as our [1.0] X-one and then we'd iterate [1.7] okay that that's the basic principle you can [0.5] check whether i've memorized which way round that goes [1.0] er [2.1] by looking at [0.3] solving for that one [1.1] X-one [1.9] yep [1.8] the other point is that it's actually much easier to remember Newton-Raphson in a simple form like this write it down [0.4] and then fill in what the function is in that second exercise [1.1] rather than trying to write it in too full of generality [2.2] and [0.4] in terms of tutorials the next tutorial's going to be [0.2] a week on Wednesday [1.0] so you'll get another chance to [0.2] both look at those exercises [0.2] or ask about the [0.5] projects [3.0] okay so that was my way of being an aside because what [0.8] we're starting to talk about now until [0.4] pretty well the end of term module the tutorials [0.7] and [1.0] some lectures on [0.4] ethics [0.5] is [0.4] survival analysis [2.3] so i'm just going to take you back to the first lecture [1.3] where [6.6] we had a whole lot of lifetimes of people [2.8] and the reason for the odd shape was these were all people who were dead [0.5] and these were a mixture of people who are alive [0.2] and dead [0.8] and i showed you [1.5] what a survival plot looked like [4.6] and [3.6] that's a fairly standard survival plot [0.2] where we start with [0.8] everyone being alive [1.2] and then [0.5] [1.3] we drop the estimates in a step function [1.7] so that if we look at this group [0.4] those who are wheelchair-bound [0.9] we see that [1.3] seventy per cent of them survive [0.7] to age ten [2.3] for this cohort [0.3] i know the group who's studying cerebral palsy [0.2] er [0.4] somebody's got a friend [0.6] who wasn't expected to live past primary [0.8] school age but you can see from this that even quite severely handicapped people have got a good chance of living beyond primary school age [5.6] right [0.5] so [0.5] er [0.3] right [1.7] i'm actually going to [3.3] put this down now [0.6] you might like to think about what the crucial elements of survival analysis are that make it a different topic i'm just going to move the screen [1.5] which [0.6] justifies [2.3] having a separate section about it [16.9] okay so [1.0] cerebral palsy's rather a large dataset it's difficult to draw some examples so what i'm going to do is give another couple of examples [0.6] of the data and then i'm going to go into [0.7] a discussion of the crucial definitions and the actual definitions themselves [0.8] so the topic's called survival analysis [8. 8] and [0.6] most people tend to think of lifetimes are for d of human lifetimes [1.4] with a [0.4] with the word survival you do tend to think of death [0.7] it's also called failure time analysis because it's used in economics [0.2] where [0.6] you stress test components see how long they last [0.4] it's used in economics how long are people unemployed or [0.2] how long are [0.6] do companies survive and is it different for [0.3] greenfield versus brownfield sites [1.4] it can even be used for lengths [1.8] how long a piece of wool can you get [0.2] before it breaks [0.5] [1.0] if you're spinning it with one or two strands that's going to be different from spinning with multiple strands [0.9] er [1.0] and that's actually [0.4] Cox and [0.2] Oakes which is one of the books that's mentioned [0.5] David Cox actually worked in the [0.6] Wool Research Institute i think it was called [0.5] precisely on [0.3] lengths of yarn so that that is actually [0.6] quite a major application [1.2] but as i say typically we're going to be thinking in medical examples [0.5] of people doing something like entering a screening programme entering a trial [1.1] being born [0.4] and then we follow them up till an event [1.2] and [0.9] the reality of what will actually happen [0.3] is that [0.9] we've got [0.3] calendar time so im-, [0.2] got say [0.7] nineteen-ninety here [1.7] two-thousand here [1.9] but not everybody turns up in nineteen-ninety at the beginning so we get people coming in [0.7] maybe dying [0.6] coming in living [1.7] coming in dying at some stage [1.0] carrying on living [1.5] er that person's just emigrated to Australia [6.3] and [2.6] we've stopped the study [1.4] in two-thousand so [1. 1] in calendar time that's the kind of pattern we've got [0.9] but in terms of what we want to analyse [4.6] we'll much more typically just use [0.3] time from zero up to [0.9] we'll try to draw this reasonably to scale [0.5] zero up to ten so these first two points [0.7] whoops [0.7] [2.3] are [1.5] pretty much at the same point [0.6] but then we start [1.9] having to think about these points coming [5.0] back to being censored that point's [3.4] if you want to draw yourselves a more accurate picture [0.9] er [5.3] you can so the idea is that we can either measure on a scale of calendar time [3.3] or [1.1] in some sense an exposed time [3.5] so if we're thinking of something like hormone replacement therapy [0.3] and whether it carries a greater risk of heart attack [0.4] or stroke [0.8] we're interested in the length of time [0.2] women are [0.2] on hormone replacement therapy [1.3] we may secondarily be interested in the date 'cause it'll change the prescriptions of the components but primarily we're just interested in the length of time [2.2] another way you may actually get data [0.5] er [1.9] is that [0.2] you don't actually get it in that form [0.2] much more likely [0.2] in this example from kidney [0.5] register data [4.8] it's quite a lot [0.4] quite likely that instead of actually getting a graph like that somebody will have done the [1.3] the summary [3.1] so this is [1.1] counter-registry type data [0.5] and the kind of thing you would get is [1.6] year since diagnosis [0.9] zero to one [0.2] one to two [1.8] two to three [0.7] three to four [4.3] so you'd get subdivisions by year [1.4] and those of you who are going to do actuarial science will find you [0.3] tend most typically to work [0.6] in subdivisions of year as opposed to exact times that i've used there [1.6] then you're going to have [0.3] the number [1.3] at the start [7.1] oh a hundred-and- twenty-six [1.0] the number of deaths in that year [3.9] was forty-seven [2.0] and the number [0.4] what are called [0.8] lost [0.4] to follow-up [4.1] lost to follow-up's meant to be quite a general term [0.2] because remember in the cerebral palsy case [0.9] you're going to land up with people who are still alive so you you're losing them in tha-, in that sense [2.2] okay so we had nineteen [3.6] sixty [0.2] five [1.2] seventeen [4.4] thirty-eight [1.4] two [0. 4] fifteen [1.8] er [2.2] twenty-one [0.5] two [1.5] nine [3.3] ten [0.7] zero [0.4] six [1.7] four [1.0] zero [0.3] four [0.8] probably sh-, [0.2] gone up to age [1.4] to year [0.3] six [12.6] and the kinds of questions you typically [0. 5] find people interested in this [0.2] are [5.4] well one thing that's very widely used in cancer [0.5] er is one and five year survival rates so [2.4] what is [0.3] the [0.4] let's just say five year [1.2] survival rate [11.1] you might think about medians [0. 6] what is [1.7] the median survival [10.8] and what is the life expectancy [12. 5] and take that to be the formal [1.5] mean [5.3] okay just so you can focus on the kinds of problems [0.7] have a quick look at this data and [0.5] discuss with the person [0.3] next to you [0.6] perhaps that first question how are you going to estimate the five year survival rate [1.5] and can you think of anything [0.6] that looks obvious but that's going to be wrong [2.5] and i'll give you about half a minute on that [1.4] then i might ask somebody to answer the question nf0951: anybody willing to o-, [0.2] volunteer an obviously wrong answer [1.7] simple answer but that [0.2] is likely to be wrong [0.6] for the five year survival rate [5.6] is ten out of one-twenty-six likely to be a good i-, estimate [2.1] okay you agree it isn't a good estimate [0.6] why [0.3] broadly speaking [3.0] sf0952: don't know why [0.7] nf0951: 'cause of all the people you've lost to follow-up [1.1] so that's basically why [0.7] all of these questions although they're quite [0.4] reasonable questions [0.5] that's why they're going to need [2.1] some sensible [0.6] er [0.9] methods that allows for all those people who get lost [1.1] so [0.2] in order to define s-, survival times [1.3] there are three critical elements so [6.2] for the definitions [2.5] of [0.6] i'm going to carry on calling them survival times [0.8] every now and again i'll make reference to these other things that aren't [0.6] necessarily survival [11.6] very first thing we need to know for a survival time [1.3] is [1.4] the start point [0.7] start point [3.9] for [2.4] each individual [13.3] and the first examples we can think of [0.9] might make you wonder why we need to discuss this [0.6] 'cause the kinds of examples you might like to think of are [0.3] date of birth for cerebral palsy [1.1] or date of entry to a randomized control trial [2.2] fairly obvious that that's the date you should use randomized trials [0.4] accrue people over time [0.2] just as people come in to [0.8] cancer registries over time or anything else [2.0] where it starts [0.2] [cough] to be slightly more complicated is if you think of epilepsy which i've mentioned before [1.8] and [1.3] by the time somebody who has epilepsy is randomized into a trial [0.4] they've got to have shown symptoms of the disease [0.9] so you might well think [0.5] shouldn't we [0.4] start from when they first showed symptoms of the disease [0.7] rather than just from [0.5] entry to the trial [1.6] the advantage of starting at entry to the trial is it's going to be unbiased because of the randomization mechanism [0.7] you should have equal lengths of time [0.3] before in both arms [1.4] because recall of first events is going to be quite poor [0.5] and so in fact with epilepsy what you do is you do start from [0.3] date of randomization [0.8] you also take into account [0.4] when the first symptoms were and how bad things have been [0.4] but as a covariate [0.2] not as the start point [1.1] er [0.6] so if you want to put a n-, you know an aside [0.6] s-, some sort of remarks on that it's not compulsory but [0.4] things like randomized control trials are quite easy [1.4] something where it becomes much more critical to define the start time [0.4] is something like screening for disease [0.6] there's still quite a big debate about the value of screening [0.2] for breast cancer [1.6] er it's been in the media a couple of t-, in the last couple of years a fair bit because [0.3] Scandinavians have said [1.1] not only is this a waste of money it actually kills more people than it benefits [0.8] and the head of the U-K breast screening has said [0.5] no no no we are wonderful [1.4] well what's the problem [0.4] the thing about screening for a disease is the whole point is you want to pick the disease up early [0.5] before there are symptoms [0.9] so you can intervene [1.5] now what that means is if you think about it [0.2] even if you did nothing [0.4] the time from first saying somebody's got breast cancer to death [1.0] is going to be longer in a screening programme than if you wait for symptoms [0.5] if you want to think of it as a line again [0.6] you think of somebody ambling along [0.8] and [0.6] at this point [0.3] they have symptoms and they go along to see their [0.3] G-P and at this point they die [1. 0] and what a screening programme tries to do is to say [0.7] let's see if we can [0.7] leap in here [0.7] with some kind of tests and pick them up [1.0] so if you measure from [0.5] the time of screening [2.3] it's always going to be longer than from symptoms [1.7] so the mere increase in length of time doesn't tell you anything at all about the benefit of the screening programme [1.0] fact the only real way you can tell about the benefits of screening programmes is [1.7] i-, well ideally randomized control trials but otherwise [0.4] you've got to have two populations one screened one not [0.6] that's what all the debate is about [0.2] what does the evidence from those kinds of trials show do they show a benefit to screening or not [1.9] and the other occasion where [0.5] you would get [0.6] er [0.7] slightly [1.1] have to think carefully about your defined point would be exposure to disease so the [0.3] case control cohort studies we've talked about [1.1] if you're thinking of something like asbestosis or [0.2] even s-, [0.2] exposure to cigarette smoking [1.8] you want to [0.2] do it from the start of the exposure [0.5] it may well be confounded with age [0.3] i-, you may want to know whether [0.4] starting to smoke at age ten has a different effect from starting to smoke at age twenty [1.5] but you need to think about the exposure so if you like briefly the the kinds of issues here would be [0.6] comparing a randomized control trial [0.2] versus screening [1.7] and [0.6] exposures [1.0] so in ec-, exposure [0.2] to risk factors [5.5] and it's those latter two that [0.3] that [0.4] warn you why this is [0.9] such an important point [1.6] and then the thir-, second thing to think about is the [0.7] time scale [5.4] or [1.6] we might change that to saying the measurement scale [9.5] and again that's [1.0] essentially because if we're thinking about the generality of survival analysis [1.4] typically when we're thinking in medical terms we are just thinking of [0.2] days months years that kind of thing [0.8] we could be thinking in engineering [1.2] about the load on a spring [1.2] er that's what you do in stress testing [0.4] load on a spring load on a bridge load on an aircraft wing to see when the rivets pop out [0.9] er [1.1] that sort of thing what kind of impact [0.9] er concrete can sustain [0.8] if you're dropping loads on it [1.4] and as i said things like yarn you might have thickness you might have length before things break down [2.0] er [0.4] and so you just [0.5] need to agree on that [0.4] this is also incidentally one point where one of the statistical [0.8] er groups of models come in [0.5] is whether you're going to transform the time scale [0.7] so should you be modelling on actual time scale or on log of time scale [4.2] so we've got a beginning we've got a time scale [1.3] clearly the thing we need is an end [0.5] so we need [1.8] a well defined [4.2] unique [2.2] event [5.1] death being the most common one that we'll be dealing with [3.8] but in fact one of my [0.2] colleagues when i was doing a PhD [0.6] the er [0.6] [0.3] failure point they were looking at was the birth of a baby they were measuring length of labour [0.5] so rather ironically er [1.0] [0.3] the [0.2] failures at that stage was a successful [1.3] live birth [2.3] er [6.7] where does this get complicated [1.0] just as i point out a s-, a few issues here where you might need to think carefully [0.6] well as i say if it's death it's not [1.1] too tricky [0.4] but quite often we're going to be looking at things like a recurrence of cancer [0.5] or you could look at that [0.9] and [2.2] there you could have multiple events so you'd want to say first recurrence [0.8] if you're going over to something like epilepsy or asthma where you have repeated [0.2] er attacks [0.6] quite often you won't be using survival analysis you'll be using [0.4] methods for modelling [0.6] stochastic processes [0.2] which some of you will have studied [2.0] [cough] [0. 8] and you may or may not want death from a particular cause you may only want deaths from lung cancers [0.6] so any deaths from [1.1] heart attacks [0.2] might not be of interest [4.3] well that's fine [1.9] the most the one that's going to [0.2] mean that we've got complications in life is that [1.4] defined end point [0.5] death [0.2] or [1.1] a recurrent [2.2] a recurrence of the tumour or [0.6] as i said in the case of labour statistics birth can be your end point [2.0] all studies of premature children and and delaying [1.1] er the birth of the child birth will be an end point [0.7] er study that [0.2] biological sciences was hoping to do [0.6] but of course the whole point is lost to follow-up [0.5] and what do we do about loss to follow- up [2.0] well that brings us into the major [0.5] definition that we [0.7] have in [2.2] survival analysis of censoring [2.1] and [4.5] so [0.9] i'll ca-, [0. 5] call this four [0.2] it's the one first one two three that are the essential things [1.3] to have survival analysis four is required to make sense of [0.2] some of the rest of this which is [1.5] censoring [2.2] okay most of you might have thought of censoring in terms of [0.9] governments telling you what films you can't can or can't watch or extracting [1.5] parts of newspapers some of some of most of you won't have but some of us have been in countries where the newspapers appear with blank sections [0.7] 'cause it's been written out [0.9] er [0.7] and that's [0.4] the same [0.3] [cough] same meaning [0.4] the reason the word's choosed in this [0.3] chosen in this context [0.5] censoring is just saying we have no more information [2.3] so censoring [0.8] of [0.5] times [2.0] and the w-, mechanism in which this [0.2] is viewed [0.4] is to say that [2.2] we have [0.8] for each individual [7.9] er where am i going [0.4] oops up here i think [1.5] for each individual [2.0] a time [1.7] C-I [2.9] m-, [0.2] beyond which we don't observe them [14.9] do not [4.0] observe them [2.2] okay [0.6] so this means in fact that er [1.4] time [2. 8] that we're actually going to observe is made up of [0.6] two parts so [0.6] if we let [2.9] the [0.3] or an individual's [6.0] actual lifetime [0.5] what would we we would see if we were able to follow them up [0.3] indefinitely [4.1] be [1.7] X-I [5.0] then [2. 0] we [4.8] observe [0.7] the survival time [8.9] so we're going to observe the survival time [2.3] which we're going to call T-I [2.7] and T-I is a function of two things [0.8] X-I [1.7] and C-I [3.0] so can you write down what that function must be [2.9] the observed survival time is what function of the [0.5] actual survival time and censoring [11.3] simple function [11.9] if you think of that top left board [2.7] where we've got crosses and then we've got the lines that go into circles or keep going on right [1.3] and if we were to censor at two-thousand [3.2] what do we do [0.5] with any line that goes through that two-thousand mark [4.5] we take the first line [1.5] are we going to s-, observe the censoring time or the death time [6.6] right we're always going to observe the [1.2] er [0.7] i'm going to regret this aren't i [4.6] this person had a notional [1.3] censoring time [3.5] we've got notional censoring times for these people [0.2] and we'll al-, always observe the minimum [1.3] of [1.7] the death time [1.1] and the censoring time because that individual [0.4] we'd stopped watching at two-thousand so we wouldn't have seen them [0.4] so the [4.3] the function we want here [0.3] is [1.6] min [5.3] ah [5.4] but we don't only observe the minimum [0.4] 'cause that wouldn't be much use to us [0.9] we also need [0.2] and [1.4] an indicator function [10.4] and this'll sometimes be [0.5] given as a death and sometimes be given as censoring [0.6] we'll call it [1.1] delta-I [1.1] which is going to equal one [1.2] if [2.8] X-I [0.2] is less than or equal to [0.4] C-I [1.3] in that case you can think of it as indicating that the death has occurred [0.8] and it's going to equal zero [0.3] if [1.9] X-I is greater than C-I [0.7] in other words we haven't actually observed the event [15.5] in all the analysis that we do [0.3] we're going to be assuming [0.4] that censoring is [1. 6] non-informative that we're not going to learn anything from the censoring [2. 0] the ways in which censoring [0.7] turn up they actually are given the names type one and type two [0.6] as i quite often find it difficult to remember which one is which i'm not going to [0.3] ask you to do that [1.1] type one censoring [0.6] is the kind of thing you most often get in medical statistics [0.9] you have a study [0.7] it has to finish at some point [1.5] so if it finishes at two-thousand or if it finishes [0.6] [0.7] at a series of dates so it finishes in two-thousand [0.8] in [0.2] the Walsgrave Hospital but we carry out data collection in one or two other hospitals at a later date [0.8] but we're still finishing at fixed times [0.7] then that's called type one censoring [0.4] the reason you don't observe people [1.0] isn't because [0.4] [0.3] you've decided i'm going to ignore that person it's for a fixed time [0. 2] you've stopped the study [1.1] type two censoring [0.3] is [0.3] much less common in medical statistics but it's very common in engineering [0.6] which is to say [0. 7] i'm going to observe this cohort of individuals [0.4] until a certain number or certain percentage of them have died [0.6] or failed [0.5] so i'm putting [0. 3] twenty [0.3] items on test [0.7] at different loadings [0.8] and [0.3] once we've [0.2] put the loads up to the point at which [1.1] ten of them have failed [0.4] i'm going to stop the study [0.7] so type two censoring [1.0] is dependent on the number of failures so it actually does depend on the whole [0. 4] time process up to that point [1.3] the way in which it determines when the tenth failure will occur [0.6] but what it doesn't do is depend on anything in the future [2.1] and then you can get [0.3] other kinds of [0.2] censoring mecha-, mechanisms [2.3] but [1.4] what's a s-, [0.2] crucial is that you want your [2.4] so [0.3] i-, in this course [0.3] well there is research in other things [0.4] but [0.9] in this course and in most [0.6] of the work that you'll look at [2.9] we [0.5] assume [4.5] that [0.9] er [9.0] right [0.9] assume that censoring [4.0] is [2.2] independent [3.4] in a fairly general sense of [3.1] survival [11.6] what we want more formally is that the probability that [1.1] T is greater than [0.6] some value T [1.4] given that [0.9] this was censored [1.6] at [0.6] time [1.2] C [2.2] well that shouldn't depend on C [2.4] as in that that [0.3] particular point [0.5] the times have been [0.4] censored [1.2] so we just want that to be equal to the probability that T is greater than T [0.7] given that we already know that the time [0.8] is greater than C [2.4] not the fact of censoring just [0.2] the sheer time so [1.5] this would hold true [0.8] true for all times before that actual censoring time [4.4] so having got the [0.2] definition of the survival time [2.7] the thing that we [0.2] the main [0.5] variable that we use within survival is [1.2] the survival function [0.4] is the focus [3.6] sorry survival function [2.4] almost invariably called [0.8] S for survival S-T-of-T [1.1] is the probability of [0.5] the random variable T [0.8] being greater than time T [0.2] probability of surviving beyond time T [0.9] so what [0.4] how does that relate to the functions you're used to dealing with with random variables [0.8] tell the person [0.2] next to you [0.2] how you'd write that in terms of a familiar function [1.4] and what the function is [24.3] any volunteers [2.3] apart from the usual suspects [2.0] does it look like anything you recollect meeting before [4.5] yes [2.6] puzzled looks [0.2] [laugh] [3.0] someone be kind to me [0.2] where have you seen a function like this before [1.9] but what was the function [6.0] you've all seen it [laugh] [10.7] some volunteer [2.8] no [0.3] no idea [4.2] probabilities [0.2] what's one of the standard things we know about probabilities [3.3] and so how can you convert that probability statement into another probability statement [6.3] sf0953: so if like S-T-of-T is one minus the probability of [0.9] T is less than [4.5] nf0951: thank you which is usually known as [0.4] ss: sf0954: density [0.7] nf0951: cumulative density [0.5] cumulative density function or [1.2] distribution function [1.1] so most of the things you'll have done before in likelihood is [0.8] basically been worked on the density function [0.8] survival works on [0.5] one minus the distribution function [3.9] in other words [1.3] those [1.6] plots i was showing you [1.5] where i talked about the probability of surviving beyond some time [0.6] those were plots of [1.1] an empirical [0.2] survival [0. 5] function [0.4] which was actually one minus your standard cumulative density function [2.9] right [0.2] er [6.4] the next logical thing for me to do is to start talking about how we do a life table analysis of that data [1.5] and given that it's lunchtime and you've got a l-, other things to do i'm actually planning [0.3] i said i'd try to finish these lectures slightly early most times [0.4] so i think it's actually more sensible for me to stop at this point [0.3] answer any questions [0.6] and see you again on Wednesday morning at [0. 3] five past nine