nm1346: what i just want to do [0.4] er [0.5] first of all is just sort of [0.
3] er recap [0.9] er this is not actually a comprehensive list but the types of 
[0.4] er [1.9] things that we talked about so far in this course in terms of [0.
4] er quality systems procedures that take place [0.5] we talked about 
specifications [0.3] the idea that when you produce product [0.6] it's er to a 
specification that's er [0.4] reasonably precise definition of what it is [0.6] 
what the customers expecting to see 
[2.0] we talked about er H-A-C-C-P-S [0.5] er hazards and er critical control 
point [1.0] er con con [0.3] hazards and critical co control points [0.4] 
analysis [0.4] and system analysis generally [0.6] reviewing [0.4] er [0.6] 
features in terms of [0.3] er efficiency features in terms of [0.5] health and 
safety system [5.8] you've heard [0.3] particularly from people like er 
professor namex about protocols [0.8] er you sure of protocols er [1.3] think 
systems to er [0.8] assist you with er [0.5] meeting required standard [3.0] 
something i 
per perhaps haven't said a lot about is work instructions er and the idea here 
[0.4] is we're talking about [0.7] er written pieces of information how the job 
should be performed [0.6] so really a written specification on how to do a job 
[6.3] and then there's general general records of work [0.5] er general records 
of where a product is at any particular time of what it's being treated with [0.
5] of whose worked on it [3.0] and [0.4] the types of records that we would 
associate with er quality control too [3.6] now [0.6] er the theme of today [0.
5] is auditing [0.6] and [0.3] er [0.3] what i want to suggest you is that 
auditing really utilizes this type of accumulated 
information [0.8] so the types of audits that we're talking about in term in 
terms o of quality management [0.6] er [0.3] er not sort of complete reviews of 
a system [0.4] but rather reviews of the quality management systems that er [0.
4] support [0.4] the way we produce our product [4.3] and i'm also going to say 
a little bit in the session just to complete [0.2] er [1.8] the package in 
terms of quality management about benchmark [1.0] that'll be just as a bit at 
the end before we have a break [2.7] okay so what's what's what're the 
principles of auditing wha what is it about [2.1] 
well we're talking about the process [0.4] of checking to see that we comply 
with a protocol or a system [0.8] and so when er [0.4] Professor namex was here 
he described [0.4] er Assured Produce Scheme in fact that's audited every year 
or so when [0.8] when when er namex was here he explained [0.4] how [0.6] er [0.
6] and have a whole series of all this [0.4] he'd sort of review wasn't it for 
[1.2] so what we're focusing on is is how we actually pick up a process how 
it's actually done [1.6] and whenever it 
actually happens [0.6] it should be based on agreed principles person doing the 
auditing [0.6] shouldn't be criticizing the grower or producer [0.7] something 
that they weren't aware they should be doing [0.6] okay so auditing is always 
based on agreed principles [1.4] it's not system analysis it's not looking for 
new things and new suggestions you can make about how things could be done [0.
4] it's it's checking something against [0.5] an agreed system [0.9] agreed 
principles [2.6] and the type of auditing we are talking about today [1.0] er 
in terms of quality management systems [0.7] exams the management system [0.2] 
rather than the process [0.8] okay [0.5] so i can say it's about 
growing tomatoes [0.2] they're not looking in detail [0.3] at the production 
system on the nursery they're looking at the [0.2] management systems to 
support that the type of records that are being kept er [0.6] er [0.3] the type 
of information that's collated [4.4] and [0.8] generally er the whole purpose 
of audit [0.6] er in really any context [0.4] is to apply er to give some 
assurance of compliance to third parties [0.5] and this'll be true for 
financial type audit as well we're not talking about financial auditing today 
we're talking about quality management of auditing [0.7] but the idea is always 
that a third party's going to be satisfied with your system complies the 
standard that that they they're expecting to
[5.5] now i have suggested that a principle of auditing [0.3] er is whatever 
outcome there is [0.4] er should be published and agreed [0.6] er by all those 
involved [0.5] er by that i need to say it's not necessarily published to the 
general [0.6] er er [0.4] media or whatever [0.6] but [0.5] y you don't really 
have er it's not really [0.4] er [0.7] accepted protocol to complete audit or 
not giving any direct feedbacks to the organizations that's being audited and 
[0.8] they should be noted [5.3] and [0.7] er audits only work [0.8] if there 
is er some type of procedure to deal with issues of non-compliance [0.6] if if 
your business is audited [0.5] and er 
basically you're not doing very well [0.4] there must be be some type of 
procedure there to address that [0.8] er an audit which just simply tells you 
[1.1] er gives you a simple grade [0.5] er which might suggest you're not doing 
very well and lets you carry on doing what you're doing in any case is not 
going to be particularly effective [3.9] so the difference between er auditing 
and types of analysis we talked about previously in the course [1.4] are that 
audits are there generally to maintain er rather than to develop standards [1.
0] okay you don't expect to really see a significant system improvement through 
audit it's there about maintenance [1.3] er [1.0] and recording what standards 
are being achieved 
rather than developing them [0.5] directly in the first instance [5.1] now 
within er schemes like Assured Produce Scheme like [1.2] BOPP it's recognized 
that there are several [0.3] levels of auditing [3.0] and er [0.7] most basic 
level of auditing is self auditing where you actually checking for yourself 
what you're doing [0.9] now [0.5] this [0.2] er is something which [0.3] er i 
have been quite interested in er for some [0.4] time er by by self here i mean 
extremely [0.3] er p personalized auditing [0.9] in your er handout [0.4] i've 
actually er [0.2] given you a sheet [1.5] which actually didn't 
actually come up very well in the er powerpoint so it is actually separate [0.
6] and [0.4] er [0.6] what it is is actually er a self audit [0.6] er that er 
we use on it's used on namex [1.6] er which is [0.3] er what i ask [0.6] er 
people to complete periodically not after every job they do but periodically to 
review [0.5] how well a possible job's been done [0.8] so er really this just 
gives you an idea the type of immediate first hand audit that [0.4] any 
employee this has might might do it's basically a checklist [0.5] and it 
actually describes er the idea behind it [0.6] and the question in here is you 
should be able to give definitive yes or no answers [0.5] so when it's er point 
five for example it's er [0.4] correct and clean pots and containers used [0.5] 
it might sound obvious but it has been a problem [0.4] er on this nursery 
before [0.3] and someone's got to simply say yes i've checked it's right [0.4] 
well they'll soon realize it's not [0.5] and obviously that's quite an 
important issue [1.0] so the idea is [0.3] that er you can actually 
definitively say [0.4] yes or no that's a good principle of auditing to be to 
ac to be able to make some type of definitive statement [2.3] and then in fact 
there're three columns which i won't describe in detail but the purpose of 
these columns is [0.4] er to basically describe the significance of non-
compliance [0.7] okay so one is something that would be totally non-acceptable 
and has to be dealt with immediately two is something you wouldn't want to have 
happen again and three is well it's happened but it's not a big issue [0.4] 
okay that's a basic outline of what happens there [1.3] and so the way the 
system's used at namex [1.7] is that er periodically [0.7] er [0.7] and not 
necessarily because jobs are going particularly well or particularly badly [0.
4] but just simply so that people continually review what they're doing 
[0.9] er might complete this new job that they've just done [0.9] and then 
it's reviewed [0.6] er with their supervisor they do it for themselves 
interview with a supervisor [0.6] so the exercise actually has a training 
function too [0.3] it actually allows us to identify if somebody understands 
why they're doing [0.4] what they're doing [4.5] the next sort of level up [0.
3] er is what you might regard or might describe as an internal audit [0.3] an 
internal audit is where an organization's looking at itself quite critically [0.
7] hopefully quite objectively [0.5] and er is making up its own mind about 
whether it's complies with systems that it's meant to be [0.4] er complying 
with [2.1] and when you do this within a company [0.3] er [0.5] what you may 
well do is have the manager of one section [0.5] er visit another section [0.6] 
so that er there's a degree of objectivity [0.6] because there's an old saying 
familiarity breeds contempt [0.4] maybe checking the work you're doing [0.4] 
yourself for yourself [0.4] er there's a very good chance that you don't 
actually [0.4] er notice what's obviously wrong [0.9] so critical internal 
auditing is [0.6] it is a business checking itself but ideally [0.3] you have 
somebody not directly involved with the operation [0.4] er auditing it and 
checking it's [0.4] it's complying with [0.5] er the requirements and 
schemes of the system [8.1] the next level i would suggest is the sort of thing 
we've been talking a lot about on this course and that's er independent scheme 
schemes like the Assured Produce Scheme [0.4] and it's er sort of equivalent in 
the ornamental sector [0.4] which is BOPP [0.8] b British Ornamental Plant 
Producers Scheme [0.3] i haven't talked a lot about BOPP so far on this course 
because [0.3] the main emphasis has been er with er [0.4] the Assured Produce 
Scheme as a model [4.4] and then finally and namex er namex made this clear er 
[0.3] back in week er [0.3] three [1.3] on top of all the these types of 
processes which businesses might 
indulge themselves in [0.9] from their own prospective for their own sake [0.9] 
you might also expect a customer audit [1.4] er [1.0] which and which is [0.4] 
er [0.4] i'm here not just simply talking about er large multiple retailers 
looking at [0.4] their [0.3] growers suppliers for example [0.5] i'm talking 
about growers themselves [0.8] perhaps going to look at their suppliers [0.6] 
because [0.3] er [0.3] if [0.2] schemes like the Assured Produce Scheme [1.0] 
er work well [2.0] producers can assure er [0.4] that their er [1.0] customers 
[1.4] that anything's in order because they will themselves audited their 
supply 
chain [0.4] just think for a minute about this Sudan One issue that's in the 
media at the moment [0.4] what's gone wrong there is that in the food 
processing industry [0.6] er there wasn't enough supply chain [0.5] auditing 
people won't checking [0.3] their suppliers [0.3] were they using er legal 
ingredients or not [0.8] so customer auditing isn't just about multiple 
retailers looking [0.3] at growers it's about growers looking at their 
suppliers as well [0.3] and being confident that they're complying [0.4] with 
the standards that are required [0.7] 
sf1347: would customers usually an advance notice of or 
would they sort of [0.7] spring on you see if you were actually [1.2] 
nm1346: ty typically there is advance [0.5] er but it it isn't unknown f f for 
er audits to be on people [0.5] and in fact we've had a discussion this morning 
about about [0.6] the fact that perhaps retailers are really more into this [0.
4] er area of actually doing [0.5] er [0.7] er on the spot audits which which 
you don't necessarily get any advice really [0.5] er of [0.5] so it it does 
vary [0.3] yeah [0.5] but typically [0.2] er [0.7] it th there is notice and 
quite frankly in 
terms of good supplier [0.2] relations [0.3] th that should be the primary 
principle which er you know these sort of things happen 
sf1348: going back to the self audit is it i mean are people really honest when 
they've been informed like that about how they've done a job and that sort of 
thing [0.6] 
nm1346: well er [0.7] as i said when people do do that they don't have a review 
with their supervisor [0.3] in fact the way we use that system at [0.2] er 
namex [0.4] is that the [0.4] er [1.3] the supervisor will go back and look at 
that [0.5] product [0.3] with that individual [0.6] er because we actually do 
want 
to know whether they got it right or wrong [0.4] and it's really surprising 
actually when we introduced that system [0.7] er it was because [0.4] a lot of 
people making a lot of mistakes we weren't expecting them to [0.6] and er it 
was because somehow [0.5] you know it's surprising even some of the most 
experienced staff still haven't understood why they're doing something [0.3] 
and haven't realized the problem with not doing it the way that [0.3] we would 
like to be done [1.7] namex 
sf1349: er er yeah imagine you're doing internal self audit 
nm1346: yeah 
sf1349: do you actually incorporate in terms of feedback systems that you would 
expect to [0.4] 
er review warning of things going wrong er what whether it be in a fairly 
minimal way or a fairly major way [0.4] i mean is is it integrated in you're 
your systems [0.9] as a feedback [0.9] 
nm1346: yeah i mean that that that y yes that's very much the point i mean [0.
5] by and large in practice er internal audits aren't just done 'cause they're 
a good idea they're usually done in preparation for other major external audits 
and quite often use the same criteria [0.4] s s so er in fact we [0.6] er er er 
at namex that's exactly what happens we actually [0.5] BOPP audit there which 
which actually er [1.0] is the basis for internal auditing system as well [0.5] 
sf1349: i was thinking really that you know when you actually implement a 
system an operational system or processes 
nm1346: yeah 
sf1349: that you [0.2] tend to design in [0.3] some sort of feedback mechanism 
[0.5] i mean auditing can just be done presumably just to er have advance 
warning that you're going to pass an external 
nm1346: yeah 
sf1349: you know sort of audit [0.3] but ass you know i i would assume that [0.
3] auditing is also done as part of a feedback system to improve the management 
of this company improve operations 
nm1346: well now i honestly don't think it was namex i i no that's what the dis 
the distinction i was trying to make 
sf1349: right 
nm1346: really i i think it's probably best dealt with as separate t to to 
system analysis and system improvement [2.0] that 
sf1349: 
nm1346: it's it's it's it's a subject it's a subject point [0.4] yes it's a bit 
like you remember i said t to you that [0.3] in a way although you could 
combine health and safety [0.7] er [0.5] risk assessment with H-A-C-C-P-S 
analysis with with [0.5] you you tend to wear different hats on [1.0] you now 
in in practice that's what i found happens [0.4] so it does it does tend to 
keep itself distinct it doesn't have to be 
sf1349: there's so much synergy there 
nm1346: yeah yeah 
sf1349: that you could use the data quite well 
nm1346: it doesn't have to be but there's there is a tendency and certainly [0.
3] er in my knowledge in terms of fresh the fresh produce sector it does tend 
to be regarded as a separate discipline [0.6] where the primary target is just 
looking to see whether there's compliance or not not [0.3] not improving [0.7] 
okay [3.9] er [0.4] i just want to reinforce er [0.5] three things that we've 
already talked about about because these are all 
audit based [0.4] er and [0.2] we should really now [0.5] er [1.2] er [1.0] be 
quite familiar with these [0.2] the Assured Produce Scheme er which applies to 
fresh fruit and vegetables which which namex came along to talk about [1.5] 
BOPP British Ornamental Plant er plant Producers Assurance Scheme which applies 
to the nurseries like namex and indeed to to all the ornamental nurseries we 
see on this course so far [3.4] and then [0.4] er [3.3] i hope it's reasonably 
clear with you [0.4] that [0.3] there is now a European standard and in many 
ways in the U-K we we had Assured Produce 
Scheme which very much proceeded European standards [0.4] European s er 
standards are known as EUREPGAP standards and [0.5] er er what we find is 
schemes actually er benchmarking themselves against EUREPGAP standards [0.8] so 
in the U-K if if you if you're in the APS [0.4] scheme then you will also have 
achieved EUREPGAP standard by default [0.6] that you also sometimes find u U-K 
growers actually going straight to the EUREPGAP standards [0.4] not actually 
using the [0.4] national equivalents but going straight to [0.8] er [0.4] the 
European wide [0.6] agreed protocol [4.2] in terms of technique then an and [0.
3] again 
[0.2] er er [0.6] coming back to to your point here namex [0.7] er [0.5] one 
of the issues about auditing is this idea of being sort of play cold in a way 
and objective [0.5] a and er [0.3] in deed [0.4] er certainly the way that er 
er er [1.1] the professional is seen to be trained it it isn't in a particular 
communicative [0.4] er er technique that they use in the first instance [0.6] 
the key thing is to be impartial and objective [0.4] and to form judge form a 
really a judgement more or less on the spot where you got a lot of the evidence 
to hand [0.7] there is specialist training in doing a title of auditing that's 
required by the likes 
of er Assured Produce Scheme [0.7] and you may or may not be aware that er here 
at namex we've got something er known as [0.3] namex Scientific Services 
Limited which is [0.3] er a c a commercial [0.3] er body [0.4] and they 
specialize in providing er training for auditors [0.9] and the and the training 
is extremely er precise in terms of conduct and attitude [0.4] as well [5.4] 
now [0.5] with something like the Assured Produce Scheme which is trying to 
audit [1.2] a very large process as in producing [0.3] er fruit or vegetable [0.
5] you can't look at every detail in business [0.4] so when your audits are [0.
3] drawn up [0.5] 
and when they're executed what the auditor is doing is focusing on what are 
regarded as key performance indicators [1.1] and [0.2] for example [0.3] er 
something simple like tidiness [1.3] er [0.2] tidiness in itself is 
aesthetically quite good [0.7] but generally people accept that there's er 
there's some sort of correlation between tidiness and organization [1.2] okay 
how organized [0.4] you are and what you're doing [0.6] so [0.6] er some of the 
issues that looked at [0.3] can be a little bit cryptic [0.6] but er they're 
regarded nonetheless as being a good indicator of how that business operates [5.
3] now [0.5] you can't look at every operation that's actually happened in the 
enterprise in detail [0.5] so [0.2] what an auditor will do [0.2] will [0.6] er 
he'll he'll look at sample issues he'll look at for example [0.3] er a 
particular batch of tomatoes in a packhouse [0.3] look at how they've been 
labelled [0.2] and see if you can actually [0.2] trace them all the way back to 
the person that actually picked them and perhaps the person who has the 
responsibility for growing the plant [1.0] so [0.2] the technique is based on 
sampling [0.6] relatively random sampling [1.2] er [1.8] and [1.3] very core to 
to all of these schemes is this concept of [0.4] traceablity [0.7] this idea 
that [0.6] er when a consumer a 
final consumer buys a product [0.6] and let's say [0.3] by some misfortune it 
is contaminated [0.7] that retailer can go back to that supplier [0.4] and find 
out [0.6] at which [0.5] point [0.4] er [0.2] or rather [0.4] during the whole 
production process who would've handled it [0.7] okay and then you can start to 
identify [0.4] er how the contamination happened [0.9] and [0.2] er prevent it 
from happening again [2.2] and indeed it is true to say [0.3] er i know many of 
you not all of you [0.8] er [0.7] at least those in part two have been to namex 
Nursery [0.5] 
they have a system there [0.5] where [0.5] you can if you buy er a pack of 
peppers in in a [0.4] supermarket [0.9] they can actually tell you who picked 
that pepper [1.4] off off the plant [0.5] a very precise [0.7] er data 
management system [0.5] er that's that's how that's the level of accuracy it 
can work to [0.2] i'm not saying it always does but it's designed to work at 
that level of accuracy [7.2] because an audit only happens in one instance in 
anything from about six months to two years in schemes that we talked about [1.
0] one of the things that the auditor's trying to do [0.4] is to believe that 
the arrangements he sees are long term [0.9] he doesn't want to see that 
they've been applied [0.5] just before he's turned up [0.5] and he wants to 
believe that they've got continuity for the future [2.0] and hence [0.5] that's 
why er [0.9] er when namex was here you know he talked about i don't know er er 
er an audit for a multiple retailer er which might involve looking to see if 
there's dust behind posters and things to see if it's just been put up [0.3] 
that is the type of thing auditors do do [0.2] because they're looking for the 
permanency and sustained auditing system [0.5] they mustn't believe it's just 
been done because they've arrived [10.7] if you are actually conducting an 
audit [0.2] qu quite often the issues that you will need [0.3] 
er immediate reference sources on [0.4] and a good example is pesticides 
pesticides as we know very critical to [0.4] er er [0.8] the the whole concept 
of Assured Produce Scheme [0.3] that's largely one of the reasons why it was 
created [0.8] and so for example one of the areas an auditor would look at in 
more detail is pesticide store [0.4] and he needs to be very authoritative as 
to whether materials you can see in there [0.7] are legal or not [0.6] and so 
he'll probably carry with him [0.5] sufficient reference sources for him to 
make on the spot judgement about that [7.2] right [0.2] er what i thought i 
would do because it could become extremely dry just talking 
about auditing i thought i'd actually show you [0.4] er er [0.3] something 
about what a BOPP audit would look like if if if [0.4] er [0.9] nurseries like 
you saw last week were being audited now by BOPP [0.7] er [0.9] what what with 
the inspector what would the auditor rather actually er look at [0.4] and [0.4] 
er i'm going to show you some pictures in due course but first of all [0.4] er 
just a basic summary get you to do [0.2] er in an office phase of the er audit 
[6.7] er it's going to basically er verify that the management records he 
expects to see in place are there [0.5] and [0.6] quite close to the top of his 
list would be risk assessments [0.6] 
okay [0.6] er we talked about health and safety we talked about the concept of 
needing to identify [0.2] er [0.8] any any risks that can be associated with a 
job and any steps that might need to be taken to minimize [0.8] er [0.7] that 
risk [0.4] and there should be if your business has more than six employees [0.
3] there should be a a record of that indeed if you are in one of the schemes 
we're talking about there needs to be a wri written record of that to prove it 
actually happened [2.4] they'll be looking at policy documents and things like 
health and safety kind of environmental policy [0.5] er equal opportunities [0.
5] they need to see that the business has actually worked out how it approaches 
these these 
issues and what it's doing about them [6.4] they'll be looking for er and again 
i'm being specific here to to er to BOPP they'll be looking for [0.4] er a 
quality manual [0.4] or at least a comprehensive range of written work 
procedures [0.4] the definitive [0.6] guide to how operations occur on that 
enterprise [4.8] and they'll also be looking for evidence of supplier audits [0.
5] now [0.6] the BOPP scheme pr er [0.2] has [0.3] a very thorough audit [0.9] 
and in fact if you subcontract production [0.3] to other growers they'll expect 
the same standards to be applied [0.3] er to the subcontractors [0.6] they'd 
also like to see how you're auditing your 
suppliers in things like [0.4] er [0.7] substrates pots [0.9] labels [0.8] 
because [0.4] a scheme like BOPP isn't so much about er safety it's about 
assurance that the supplier's capable of delivering the product [1.6] and if 
you don't understand [0.4] the process by which your pots labels substrates 
come to you [0.5] there's every chance [0.3] you might s suggest [0.4] that you 
could have a situation that where stuff doesn't turn up one day [0.7] and 
you've got no idea why that could happen [0.9] okay [0.8] so it's about 
assurance of ability to deliver sometimes as much as anything else [6.0] and 
then the other thing that er the auditor'll probably look for in the office are 
the crop and stock records the the things that er [0.2] offer the [0.3] ability 
to [0.2] er trace [0.5] the er progress of the product through the system [0.4] 
and allow traceability [0.4] after the product's been sold as well [3.9] 
sf1347: do they expect to have a p paper record whenever i've worked in other 
industries they've always wanted a paper 
nm1346: yeah and 
sf1347: trail rather than in an electronic so that you can prove 
nm1346: it should be 
sf1347: yesterday 
nm1346: yes yes they do 
sf1347: which is a problem 
nm1346: 
a and er you know sometimes it's extraordinary er [0.5] and i know a nursery 
enterprise that was in process in the middle of audit [0.9] of spending another 
[0.6] three hundred thousand pounds [0.4] on an irrigation management system to 
to water recycling [0.8] and it failed its audit on irrigation management 
because [0.4] th they weren't in a paperwork form that the auditor could 
actually what was happening [0.7] 
sf1347: sometimes it's really difficult to actually find [0.3] a way of 
actually recording it 
nm1346: it it is 
sf1347: in a paper format 
nm1346: yeah yeah and so in this stage you'll get guidance to how you actually 
achieve compliance [0.8] but you've got to you have to say a lot of it is there 
[0.4] to enable an audit to take place [0.8] and a question which's just coming 
out of this is hold on a minute isn't this all a bit onerous [0.4] and the 
answer is yes [0.2] why do you think there're so many technical managers in 
commerce now it's actually to manage this type of activity to a large extent [5.
9] okay i'm going to drop the lights a little bit here 'cause i'm going to show 
you a few slides of what actually [9.0] er what i actually want to looked at er 
on a on an audit around this nursery which again is namex 
[0.8] one of the obvious places they went to was they look at the chemical 
store er [0.8] er because this issue of pesticide state of course is q is quite 
critical [0.6] er the types of things they expect to see [0.2] er will be if 
the area where chemicals are stored is clearly [0.5] labelled er [1.1] if you 
have er a lot of er a lot of certain different nationality on in your on your 
site [0.2] er they expect to see that [0.3] er [0.4] labelling in all relevant 
languages so [0.3] er that's a a step that a lot of the nurseries are 
addressing at the moment 'cause er they're getting extremely multicultural 
environments 
[2.5] looking a bit further in store [0.4] pesticides you know in our industry 
are a very critical issue [0.5] and so they'd be going right through the er 
pesticide cabinet probably and just checking everything there is legal [0.7] 
that is the type of thing which a lot of these audits are covering in quite 
acute detail [4.0] now er there are quite a few records that are associated 
with with er [0.5] pesticide application [0.4] but they would need to see up to 
date [0.5] er and comprehensive records of er sprays that've been applied to 
crops and they'd [0.3] need to believe that there're sufficient detail [0.4] 
for [0.5] 
er [0.8] the [1.7] er the grower to be able to retrospectively er confirm 
perhaps what crop had been treated with [3.3] of course there is a large degree 
of legal compliance [0.5] er in that issue as well [1.8] most assurance schemes 
adv advocate and promote [0.4] er I-P-M [1.8] er Integrated Pest Management [0.
3] and so er most protocols now [0.4] will [0.2] er er [0.3] involve [0.6] er 
[0.3] standards in terms of pest monitoring [0.7] and so in BOPP [0.5] er [0.2] 
what what they need to see is that you actually have er [0.2] a system [0.2] 
for for regular analysis of of pest levels [0.5] we all know about sticky traps 
i'm sure [0.4] er this is the system which i presume most of you are familiar 
with [0.4] whereby [0.4] the sticky trap [0.3] er [0.8] has four sheets of 
paper over it and you peel off a sheet [0.6] every week so you use it for four 
weeks [0.4] and monitor er [0.4] pest outbreaks across a four week period [3.0] 
this is this this is like a key indicator [0.6] 
to to an auditor can they see this type of system in place [0.4] everywhere 
that they go to [0.3] if they can they can believe [0.3] that probably [0.5] er 
a good I-P-M regime's [0.2] is in place [0.7] and when they look at a trap like 
this [0.3] if they've all just been put up that day it looks like they've been 
put up for the audit [0.4] but if if they all have a history of pest upon them 
then clearly it's a system that's been running for some time [1.6] when it 
comes to er mechanized equipment [0.5] they're going to be looking for er 
evidence that er there's adequate safety notice [1.9] 
er [0.2] in this case actually we have got er a bilingual system in actual fact 
[0.5] no this isn't the quite same because in two languages [2.0] er [0.7] i 
put this one in because i i er [0.4] was a bit frustrated about this particular 
issue [1.3] we're looking here at a er [0.6] fridge [0.4] and i store all my s 
semen actually in fridges [0.6] which which is quite good 'cause i don't hold 
on to it for very long [0.7] but actually er [10.0] i i failed on audit here 
because i didn't have records of temperatures inside the fridge [1.2] okay [0.
3] so 
that's the type of standards that schemes are actually [0.5] er [0.3] they are 
working too [5.3] and there'll be [0.4] they'll be overviewing the entire 
section of the operation just looking for general standards of hygiene 
cleanliness [0.4] and and basic organization [1.3] er [2.0] before an audit [0.
8] you do basically want to make sure your areas are as clean as possible [0.7] 
and [0.3] anything that is not used you want to make sure it's stored properly 
as well [1.4] so [0.2] er it's now routine [0.3] on 
this nursery to actually er make sure [0.5] er [0.5] the er [1.9] compost 
filling machines machine [0.2] er are always covered over [0.5] er when they're 
not in use because there'll always be some waste com compost in there [0.2] 
which is probably getting dry and could spoil future use [7.7] climate control 
is an in is a critical part of the protective crop production [0.4] so another 
good sort of performance indicator that [0.2] that that a company is managing 
its climate very carefully [0.3] will be how their aspirating screens are 
positioned [0.9] er if you are actually doing a job properly [0.2] you might 
expect it to have some reasonable proximity to [0.2] the plants that you're [0.
7] er [2.2] you're actually growing [5.6] most assurance schemes as well er [0.
4] will be concerned [0.3] at er what business are doing to minimize the [0.3] 
er [0.3] potential [0.4] er occurrence of of of pollution environmental 
pollution [0.8] and so [0.3] er in most schemes you will find [0.4] that [0.2] 
er there's a requirement for any oil storage [0.2] to be in bunded 
storage tanks [0.4] by bunded i mean that what we got here [0.2] is a system 
where oil is stored in a tank that is inside a tank [0.9] so if the inner tank 
was to rupture [0.5] the contents wouldn't just spill out into the [1.0] er [0.
5] into into the er [0.8] water system [1.5] that it can actually [0.2] hold [0.
4] er a leak [0.4] it's what we call bunded tank [0.7] an interesting thing 
here [0.5] here is that er in terms of legal compliance [0.5] er [0.3] farms 
are excluded from needn't er necessarily have a bunded tank seems a bit bizarre 
in a way 'cause they seem to be 
[0.4] the type of place where you might well get an oil leak [0.7] er but the 
assurance schemes that we've looked at [0.4] er most of them [0.4] would 
require [0.5] er [0.8] the operation to keep its oil stored in bunded tanks [0.
8] the alternative [0.5] and this is er something that er [2.4] is being 
addressed in the nursery [1.0] concerned is to having a unbunded tank so this 
is just a normal [0.3] er storage tank [0.4] and if that was to er get ruptured 
drive into them [0.3] there would be er an oil spillage incident [0.3] and the 
environment agency would now have to get involved because chances are it would 
soon end up in a water course [3.7] okay so that basically er er [0.9] is what 
i want to say about auditing i've tried to give you an idea of physically what 
it might involve in the process [0.2] it's involved [1.2] er [0.7] just one 
thing i want to cover off really er before i finish th the sort of key quality 
management systems [0.7] er i just want to say a little bit more about 
benchmarking [2.2] er because it is a slightly different issue to anything 
we've talked about before [0.5] before and it is very much er th th the sort of 
er [0.2] widely accepted concept [1.2] so while we're 
talking about benchmarking what we're talking about is er comparisons and 
performance between businesses businesses sharing er looking at how well they 
are performing in terms of efficiency perhaps [0.8] or perhaps in terms of 
outlets as well [2.8] er [0.4] an example from the U-K ornamentals industry is 
something called Nursery Business Improvement Scheme er [0.6] which is ruled by 
a horticultural trades association [0.5] and in that particular scheme [0.5] 
businesses actually [0.2] er [0.4] submit quite detailed financial data [0.5] 
to a third party [0.5] that then [0.2] er interprets that data in a way that it 
can be shared with other members of the scheme [0.9] and in 
fact [0.3] there's a [0.4] great deal of honesty er involved in a scheme like 
that [0.5] and there're many producers that wouldn't want to get involved [0.7] 
because they wouldn't want to share some of their [0.2] costs with the other 
other businesses [0.6] you tend to find that the larger a business is [1.0] the 
more reserved it is about that type of information 'cause large businesses 
often benefit from extremely low costs from suppliers [0.6] and they would 
jeopardize this investment if they were to publish exactly how much they were 
paying [1.5] but benchmarking can also look at [0.6] er the physical 
performance of a business [0.2] efficiency 
operations [0.6] er [0.6] how efficient er [0.5] potting might be going or 
tomato picking [0.9] something like that but can look at er physical parameters 
as well as financial ones [3.3] and one of the reasons why er they are probably 
undergoing [1.6] quite a quite a [1.5] p p popularity at the moment is that er 
there is [0.2] er quite a lot of funding in the U-K available for businesses 
that want to get into benchmarking schemes [0.5] the government recognizes that 
it's one way of actually [0.3] er supporting [0.3] er [0.2] U-K enterprise and 
and big leap forwards [0.2] so the department of trade and industry for example 
[0.2] er offers quite significant funding 
[0.4] and [0.3] opportunity for businesses that want to get together and 
compare performance [3.4] okay [1.2] now like i said we've really covered the 
core part of quality management on this course next week i'm going to talk 
about a little bit about er financial management [0.6] er and there are [0.2] 
er [0.4] three discussion points that i want to put you [0.4] and i'm going to 
[0.3] basically put them up now [0.7] and when we [3.4] when we er looked at 
we'll then take a break and then i'll see if if y if there's anything that er 
[0.7] we c we can actually derive from all these er these issues [2.4] first 
point put to you 
is [1.2] have er assurance schemes such as Assured Produce Scheme [0.3] really 
[0.3] improved your confidence [0.6] okay [0.3] ha have they contributed an 
improvement in consumer confidence in product quality [0.8] we've talked about 
these extremely onerous systems but you're the consumer [0.4] do you think it's 
made any difference [1.0] okay i'll ask you just to think about that would you 
argue yes would you argue no [0.4] if the argument is no then has it really 
been worthwhile [5.9] do quality management systems stifle innovation [0.7] if 
quality management is about describing exactly how you are going to do 
something and then you're going to be audited 
to check that you do it exactly that way [1.4] is that stifling innovation what 
about the employee that says [0.4] hold on a moment what if i do it this way [3.
0] can that really happen you've got [0.3] a rigorous quality management regime 
[0.8] what do you think [5.2] and [1.8] i wonder [0.7] if one of the themes 
that we've had it was here when namex was here it was coming up today [1.0] er 
yes we've talked about systems can be quite paperwork intensive [0.4] that can 
generate a workload of their own [1.4] so do you think that all these systems 
that we've talked about [1.3] are truly sustainable in a medium size business 
[1.9] a very large business [0.6] 
probably has to do no more paperwork than medium or small size businesses in 
many cases [0.6] so it's the smaller and medium size businesses that bear the 
burden [1.6] in terms of proportion of their time [1.0] to achieve some of the 
standards we talked about do you think that's sustainable [1.8] well i'm going 
to [0.3] just throw those questions back at you after you've had a bit of break 
okay and er we'll see what we come up with [0.5] but we'll take er a ten minute 
break now 
nm1346: first of all [0.7] i put it to you [0.2] what shall we do with this 
first one do you think [0.6] that for all the schemes [0.3] you as consumers 
feel any safer now what you're 
eating or buying [0.4] 
su1357: no 
su1358: i don't know 
su1357: no 
sf1348: i don't think 
su1357: they don't see it do they 
sf1348: i don't think joe public knows what an assurance scheme is [0.3] 
nm1346: right [0.4] do you think they're supposed to or do you think it's just 
for the supermarkets and retailers [2.0] 
sf1348: i think it's another [1.2] crowbar f f for the supermarkets to place on 
the producers [1.0] 
nm1346: right [0.5] 
sf1350: but shouldn't the public know 'cause they put those little tractor 
symbols i thought that's for the public 
to know [0.4] 
nm1346: yes 
sf1348: well it is 
sf1350: but they they they haven't but they haven't been er educated 
su1357: no 
sf1350: in the actual meaning of it 
sf1348: no er 
sf1351: presumably a lot comes off their own backs 
nm1346: yeah 
sm1352: er i i think they use a lot of confusion er among the public about what 
s such schemes involved and about the logos of these schemes 
nm1346: yeah 
sm1352: i think er [0.5] most of the public is not er adequately informed 
nm1346: yes 
sm1352: about er [1.0] exact procedures of such schemes [1.0] 
nm1346: i 
think you are right [0.4] a and [0.6] one of the problems that namex emphasized 
when he came here to talk about the Assured Produce Scheme [0.4] was the budget 
that's involved to promote a logo like that so people understand what the 
values are supposed to be behind it [0.6] er a lot of people think that the er 
tractor logo means that er as you said it's [0.6] the public think that it 
means that the product has been produced in the U-K and that isn't necessarily 
true [0.5] it means it's it's actually been produced under a system which 
matches the Assured Produce standard which is British British based [0.5] 
scheme that could've been produced in Spain Portugal wherever [0.7] 
sf1349: 
nm1346: so sorry [1.0] 
sf1349: ha the other thing is that er is the purpose of the schemes h was it 
was the purpose of the schemes to actually [0.2] boost consumer confidence or 
was it to provide as we saw this morning in the food act er sort of some [0.3] 
risk er a assessment so that er retailers have er you know can actually prove 
what's been happening right the way down the chain for him to put on the spot 
for some reason or another i mean what was the purpose of the scheme is it for 
the consumer or is it for the retailer 
nm1346: well going back to what namex said a few weeks ago [0.4] 
er it it originated because supermarkets created their own diverse standards [0.
6] but what they why were they doing that it was because they're trying to 
build their own brand identities [0.8] and it seems to me that [0.3] er [0.9] 
the Assured Produce Scheme it might rationalize those standards but [0.6] 
doesn't assist the supermarket to build up its brand identity [0.7] i think 
what's happened here is what brand that is in the supermarket has remained far 
more important than [0.3] than a general [0.4] brand [0.6] so y we've not seen 
for example supermarkets investment [0.4] to any [0.2] large degree [0.3] in 
promoting that scheme any further they would rather perhaps that you 
believe that Tescos Marks and Spencers [0.2] Waitrose whoever [1.2] that it is 
what they do uniquely to their product which makes it potentially better than 
[0.7] product from elsewhere would you would you agree with that's probably 
what's happening here [0.8] i think [0.9] you know [0.4] th there isn't a 
consensus to try and build a sort of general brand of of assurance [0.8] that 
actually stands on its own two feet [2.8] 
sf1348: yeah 
nm1346: 
sf1348: i think that's right 
nm1346: 
sf1348: 
'cause i 'cause i don't think you i don't think you would get [1.7] J-S Tescos 
[0.7] Waitrose and Somerfield to all appear to agree [1.6] on the same thing 
unless it was [0.5] er [0.8] safety they would all say our products are safe [0.
5] 
nm1346: yeah [0.9] 
sf1348: but they wouldn't say our product is the same as Marks and Spencers or 
[0.5] 
sm1355: they all 
sf1348: J-S 
sm1355: want to appear to have better quality 
sf1348: yes 
sm1355: products than the others so they are not all agree 
sf1348: i mean Waitrose adverts for instance are very different from [0.6] er 
magaz media er very different from er J-S adverts [0.3] 
nm1346: yeah 
sf1348: and that's because they're trying to say that 
nm1346: different image 
sf1348: yeah 
nm1346: yeah [0.9] yeah so it it seems to me that really er whereas this sort 
of process is always going to go back i mean going background anyway [0.5] and 
it's been a certain amount of rationalize behind the scenes we've not ended up 
with something which gives you [0.7] the consumer any [0.4] great assurance 
that perhaps the brand of supermarket you 
are buying from [0.4] is that is that a reasonable summary [0.6] 
sm1354: it looks like one of the issues with it though is er no matter how much 
you have these assurance quality assurance schemes you only need one episode 
like B-S-E or salmonella in eggs 
nm1346: yeah 
sm1354: and it a actually kn kn knocked a whole [0.5] concept of it [0.2] you 
know out out the water really and and now we've got the Sudan One issue so [0.
2] you know even with all these schemes in at the end of the day doesn't really 
boost your confidence as a consumer that there's not something else going on 
that someone hasn't thought about yet [0.3] 
nm1346: yeah [0.4] so in practice then do you think 
there was ever any room for this anyway as a consumer where you're going to 
primarily loyal [0.4] to a supermarket brand for for quality or were you going 
to be ever be able to [0.8] be more convinced by a [0.3] little red tractor [1.
3] what do you think [2.0] 
sm1354: 
sf1348: well i don't know er 
sm1354: price aren't they tractor 
nm1346: i mean 
sf1348: by er as er hopefully i'm an educated consumer and if i see [0.5] er 
two pieces of chicken and if one's got a little red tractor on it 
and the other hasn't [0.3] then i'll buy the one with the little red tractor on 
it 
nm1346: yeah 
sf1348: but i think most people are guided by price 
nm1346: yeah 
ss: 
sm1355: i'd i'd go by the brand that the er actual supermarket 
nm1346: yeah 
sf1348: i think though er primarily 
sm1355: yeah 
ss: 
nm1346: and so what we haven't done 
sm1355: quality 
nm1346: we haven't 
discredited the process we've just questioned the way it might present itself 
ss: 
sf1349: the only difference the only er er er just open it up perhaps i'm just 
[0.6] questioning whether perhaps or the organic assurance [0.7] er label if 
you like [0.3] does have [1.4] er more edge than those i mean i think if i went 
into a supermarket [0.8] i would be buying potentially organic [0.4] from any 
supermarket you'll know that that's organic [0.4] er rather than Tesco's 
organic or Sainsbury's organic so i think the organic label actually works 
su1357: yeah 
sf1349: in terms of consumer 
confidence even if it's er [0.2] you know it's questionable i think it actually 
works 
nm1346: i think it works for that section 
sf1349: yeah exactly 
nm1346: of of of the market that it's that it's that it appeals to 
sf1349: but that i mean your question is about consumer confidence i think 
nm1346: yes 
sf1349: it's the organic from er the section of the market that it appeals to 
it actually does work whereas 
nm1346: yeah 
sf1349: i don't think the other assurance schemes necessarily do 
nm1346: yeah 
sf1349: it it it's consu er you know 
nm1346: yeah and perhaps their values aren't clear enough 
sf1349: er 
nm1346: yeah 
sf1349: perhaps 
nm1346: yes 
sf1348: you don't see when you walk around any of the supermarkets you don't 
see anything about little red tractor other than the sticker on the on the 
produce 
nm1346: yeah [0.8] right fair c fair c fair comment okay i think we have 
actually aired that and got some interesting perspectives [0.4] i have got my 
own view on this do they stifle innovation quality management schemes [0.4] 
yeah 
ss: 
sm1354: i think that the fact that they do is why while you're running a T-Q-M 
system you often then have to s set in place something else [0.3] like quality 
improvement circles where 
[0.3] you can look at other ways of doing it and that's because you actually 
stifle the the the innova er innovative [0.8] 
nm1346: yes 
sm1354: thought processes that would normally go on in any system [0.3] 
nm1346: do you all agree with that basically 
sf1349: no 
nm1346: namex you don't agree 
sf1349: i don't agree i actually think that if you've got a really good sorry 
there's er 
sm1354: no that's okay 
sf1349: i think if you've got a really good quality management system it 
actually builds in as as you were intimating [0.6] that innovative aspect to it 
it's the design of the 
quality 
sf1347: build in the flexibility 
sf1349: yeah you can build it in 
sf1347: allow people to suggest and make changes [1.0] 
nm1346: i've got to say in practice i i'm not convin i i 
sf1349: in practice i am convinced 'cause i 'cause i i've seen it done not in 
nm1346: yeah 
sf1349: horticulture 
nm1346: no i i haven't really seen it convincingly done in horticulture 
sf1349: no i i couldn't have that experience 
sf1348: i think it st i think it stifles [0.3] innovation from [0.4] the bottom 
[0.2] 
up [1.3] i think if somebody in [0.4] er [1.3] if somebody [0.7] who is paid to 
look at or a part of their job is to look at the system [0.6] to develop it 
change it whatever [0.2] i don't think it stops innovation there because 
alongside a good quality management system you need systems to analyze your own 
systems 
nm1346: yeah 
sf1348: if that makes sense but i think what it does stop i think what 
especially t T-Q-M stops is anything you know one of your workers coming up and 
s one of the people that actually physically does the job day after day and 
says if you give me a bread basket this deep [0.4] and i'll stand on that 
that'll make my job so 
much easier 
nm1346: yeah 
sf1348: and i mean you don't give them a bread basket you'll give them you know 
[0.5] but i think it stops that 
nm1346: namex 
sf1356: er for m my personal [0.7] er ex experience er the quality management 
systems they don't tell you how to do things they only want you to have records 
[0.2] of what work you're doing 
sf1348: mm 
sf1356: and if your if your employee wants a basket this deep or something 
you'll write [0.2] that he should er he should have this basket this deep 
to do him her his work or something 
sf1348: yeah 
sf1356: like that 
sf1348: yes i can see where you're coming from 
sf1356: so if it is in in your er work er 
sf1348: work instruction 
sf1356: instruction it's okay 
sf1348: yeah but i think having having worked in a large organization that's 
total that was total quality quality management you were almost brainwashed 
into [0.8] this this is an audit point that's an audit point and that's not a p 
audit point and it was that always to make sure that all these things are 
constantly correct and the paperwork is always right [0.4] and the tagging is 
always right and there mustn't be any gaps between this and this and you're so 
busy concentrating on these 
things that i don't think it gives the people that don't that do the job i 
don't think they think about it 
sf1347: i think that's the fault of and you take the staff somewhere give them 
time to actually 
nm1346: c can i just [0.9] i mean just to try an tie the two targets together 
here actually [0.9] my experience is that er what where things can go wrong is 
very much in your middle and lower management where [0.4] you've got 
supervisors that become preoccupied with meeting the system requirements that 
they they they take a direct personal responsibility and stifling [0.6] very 
much innovation because i think that does tend to happen 
sf1348: mm 
nm1346: but on the other hand if you've 
got good quality management systems and if you're in a position where you know 
how to actually influence how it's done [0.7] you can [0.3] potentially plan th 
that change a lot more effectively [0.5] because you've got the way of 
communicating that change right through the system 
sf1349: actually you've s i think you've actually hit on the button it's all 
about communication than anything else 
nm1346: yeah in practice i think [0.3] they do tend to stifle [0.5] innovation 
at at at the most junior levels in the organization [0.3] they wouldn't if if 
if if [0.8] if the middle management sy system worked properly but in practice 
i really think they do [0.4] that's my 
personal experience an and that's in the food sector and the ornamental sector 
horticulture i'm thinking of but yes from my point of view i know you know as a 
technical manager that if i if i s if i want to make a change [0.3] now within 
a s framework we've got operating at somewhere like namex [1.0] it's probably a 
lo a lo much easier to effect quite a major change in how can do anything than 
what it used to be [0.6] because the system's there to make it [0.3] 
automatically happen [1.9] so it's an interesting question i think and it and 
certainly [0.3] er an argument that many people do use against [0.7] er 
application systems but 
er i think you'd agree it's about communication more than anything else [0.6] 
yeah 
su1357: yeah 
nm1346: maybe [0.5] namex [1.0] 
sm1354: er actually i'll be quoting on this a big organization it's much more 
difficult 
nm1346: it's yeah it does become difficult yeah 
sm1354: you have to then you know [0.2] pull together twenty thirty people to 
discuss one small change because everyone has to change their [0.3] 
documentation about how something's going to be done [0.3] and what boxes 
you're going to tick [0.5] s so maybe in a small organization it's more 
flexible i 
think the big organization it it [0.2] kills innovation 
nm1346: yeah [1.0] okay [0.8] yes er this course is because er quality 
management business communications actually er er partly because of the the 
nature of that issue [1.0] okay er [1.8] so how sustainable you're now we're 
not [0.7] a a big [0.7] er er organization perhaps smaller growers whatever [0.
7] do y does it seem sustainable to you do you think that [0.5] er generally [0.
6] what we talked about you could practically do in an enterprise of [0.8] 
twenty or so people [3.2] what do you think [6.4] do you believe in it [0.7] 
what we've been talking about [1.0] 
sf1348: i think it's a fact of life 
sf1356: so if you have to do it 
nm1346: yeah this i that's er the second answer twice isn't it really [0.7] is 
it i i if that if that's all there is to it it is a bit sad isn't it [0.5] we'd 
like to believe that it's actually going to be [0.3] good [0.7] for us and i 
think actually [0.7] in many cases it is er [0.7] actually i think the BOPP 
scheme's a good scheme [0.6] i think it does help 
sf1349: i think there's what it boils down to is whether the the scheme 
actually enables you to improve 
[0.4] er the system so that it won't runs more efficiently 
nm1346: yeah 
sf1349: if your operations if by putting in an assured scheme means that your 
operations and processes and management [0.6] improves then it's good for the 
organization 
nm1346: yeah 
sf1349: it depends on the own you know how onerous it is really 
nm1346: yeah 
sf1348: i think if you're [0.2] er i think if you're a new [0.6] producer of 
whatever [1.6] er and you're starting from the very beginning in it that at 
this time now [0.6] then [0.3] your production has to have [0.6] quality [0.8] 
management [0.3] schemes t and you will have to be [0.4] 
er audited by somebody [0.5] and the expensive bit is setting up setting up the 
the systems [0.4] and i think [0.9] once you're running and everything's okay 
[0.4] then [0.2] relatively [0.3] audits are a just [0.2] any er are just er 
any expense that everybody has to build in [0.3] but it's if you're an old 
producer [0.5] that has to change over to these schemes i think that's when you 
it gets very expensive 
nm1346: okay to round this up today 
sf1348: mm 
nm1346: and the other thing i would say as well i have mentioned slightly the 
cost of compliance [0.4] it is in large 
organization's interests [0.6] to make the requirements more and more demanding 
'cause they could probably execute them [0.2] more efficiently than smaller 
organizations [1.6] okay [0.3] good well that sort of rounds off er quality 
management i want to move on to er cover [0.5] er really some just background 
information [0.3] about er staff training it's not something i want to cover in 
a great deal [0.4] er [0.3] of detail but really just so it's there [0.4] t to 
fit in the picture we might do the exercise at the end we might not depending 
on how time goes [0.4] er [0.3] but er [0.4] here we go [0.6] okay [0.5] so er 
[4.8] 
from a business perspective [1.2] er [0.9] there's there's really two two [0.3] 
types of [0.3] er training issue [0.6] firstly there's immediate on the job 
training [0.5] basically enabling somebody to do what you're asking them to do 
[0.6] er showing them how to do the job [2.0] and then there's the more 
strategic [0.5] er [0.2] what we call in this country vocational training [1.0] 
er [0.5] which actually er is formalized [1.0] you you wouldn't typically wait 
for someone to be er formally trained before they could do a job [0.4] er [1.9] 
apart from in certain circumstances like forklift driving and pesticide 
application [0.3] i'm thinking here though of more general [0.2] 
er formal qualifications [5.4] and [0.2] er [0.6] just a just a general sort of 
er [1.3] thought really [0.6] er [1.0] nowadays er in commerce we talk about [0.
3] human resource management er H-R management [0.4] which er is good [0.4] but 
[0.2] er sometimes [0.6] it seems to me that [0.3] in a way it's er this whole 
idea of H-R management [0.6] is actually potentially dehumanizing [0.8] er the 
workplace [0.6] er because it's almost taking making [0.5] er what people are 
doing and sort of clinically categorizing it does that sort of make sense [0.4] 
and i think that is a bit of risk [0.2] when we when we er [0.6] you know 
sometimes we talk about these issues that er we just you know it can be a bit 
clinical just talking about people as a component of the production system [0.
7] now that's not the intention generally [0.4] but i've been to a lot of 
seminar's about training in the workplace and that's how sometimes it's ended 
up sounding [0.4] so i'm just pointing out that's a bit of risk [0.3] er 'cause 
we are talking about people here [3.7] now er [0.3] this er you don't need to 
worry about looking at this 'cause i've given it to you on your handout er [1.
0] if you look at er [0.3] i think it's probably the last sheet i gave you [3.
5] er it's the same same detail [0.5] but there's quite a lot of confusion now 
in the U-K at least about er how qualifications [0.3] 
relate to each other [0.5] and i do want to just briefly [0.3] er actually give 
you some detail [0.5] about er [0.3] where they all fit in [0.8] firstly i want 
to suggest to you in the U-K and across Europe there are similar sort of er 
principles [0.4] we have [0.3] er what we call the vocational qualifications 
which are typically workplace based [0.2] and done by people actually working 
in an enterprise [1.7] academic qualifications like [0.8] er [0.4] we have here 
and then there are certain qualifications which seem to me at least to come [0.
2] er [0.3] broadly speaking into the middle [1.7] and then starting on the 
vocational side the government has identified [0.3] er [1.0] 
achievement levels [0.2] er one to five [0.7] and [0.2] these are [0.2] er [0.
3] first of all what we call in the U-K [0.2] national vocational 
qualifications N-V-Qs [1.4] but these achievement levels should have parallels 
[0.3] across the other [0.4] er [0.9] qualification systems too [1.3] and so [0.
3] er the basic idea really of er vocational qualifications [0.6] is that N-V-Q 
one and N-V-Q level two [0.7] are workplace based [0.9] er qualifications [0.6] 
where people in a workplace [0.5] ideally or they may go er to college or they 
m be be based at college [1.8] er the idea 
is you can achieve this in a workplace [0.7] and N-V-Q level one and level two 
[0.3] there're aimed very much at the general employee [0.3] okay so it's they 
are qualifications which anybody in the prospective business that their that 
their qualification's covering it might be commercial horticulture for example 
[0.3] er [0.2] w potential benefit [0.4] from receiving that level of of of er 
training and achieving that type of qualification being a business [0.4] and an 
individual's strategic interest [1.7] N-V-Q level three across all industries 
is aimed at [0.4] er [0.5] supervisors really [0.5] at team leaders and 
supervisors [0.7] and then N-V-Q level four and N-V-Q level five [0.6] 
er are moving on to [0.4] junior and senior management level [0.4] er 
qualifications [1.8] so in the U-K we have N-V-Qs there are [0.3] similar 
equivalents around Europe [0.4] and we have them arranged into [0.5] er [0.2] 
five levels [0.7] and there are er [0.2] er [2.2] er er [0.2] other 
professional qualifications which perhaps [0.3] go beyond the level five [0.5] 
and are generally recognized as being perhaps a step further and things like er 
diploma from the institute of management [0.4] and er [0.7] similar 
qualifications [2.0] and then we have the academic qualifications [2.4] er er 
and [0.3] er [0.7] at level two equivalent [0.5] 
er we've got things like G-C-S-Es and you can do a G-C-S-E in horticulture or 
rural skills [1.4] er along with other G-C-S-Es at the same time and there're 
equated to the sort of level two on workplace qualification [0.7] at level 
three which is a supervisory level qualification the sort of equivalent is [0.
6] er [0.4] A levels [0.9] er you can do A level horticulture although very few 
colleges [0.5] er offer it [0.7] er [0.5] many of you will have done A level 
botany [1.0] and then B-S-C within the [0.2] er general scheme of things [0.7] 
is identified at being [0.2] at [1.3] level four or arguably er into er level 
[0.2] er [0.2] five [1.0] and the N-S-C w 
might be quoted to [0.4] to to level five [0.7] the idea is then that [1.2] er 
[0.3] with the this sort of scheme of thinking [0.8] in a workplace [0.3] you 
might er achieve a similar level of achievement [1.5] to what you might do 
through a purely academic route [0.5] okay there are different types of 
achievement [0.6] but the achievement might nonetheless be recognized as being 
[0.7] at a similar level [0.8] does that make sense [1.0] er got a few 
intermediate qualifications in the U-K [0.6] and a lot of these are organized 
by a body called Edexcel [0.7] er and [0.2] they're known as er [0.4] things 
like er first diplomas and national diplomas [1.5] and i have 
fitted them into the picture too [1.6] and the other sort of er [0.3] co er 
complicating er factor of things like first degrees [0.9] er [0.4] you could 
have argued a first degree [0.4] is probably er a level three type of 
qualification [0.6] which then [0.6] er might be converted [0.4] ultimately 
into a [0.5] full degree by going to the final year of a full degree course [1.
4] so it's quite a quagmire of [0.5] er [0.2] qualifications in the U-K [0.5] 
but the idea of this chart is to give you some idea of equivalents and where 
they how they [0.3] actually [0.7] er relate to each other [1.0] has anyone got 
any questions about that [1.0] 
sf1348: 
is a first degree equivalent to an er a foundation degree 
nm1346: sorry i meant a foundation degree [0.3] sorry [0.3] you corrected me 
there [0.6] when i said that and as a first degree i meant foundation degree 
thank you [3.6] okay [2.8] er [0.4] but from a [0.2] from a business 
prospective [0.9] this is the route you'd probably send your employees down [0.
3] and the type of qualification you would finance them [0.6] er to do while 
they were working with you [4.0] now [2.8] when it comes to er training 
programs [3.5] from a business perspective [0.8] er [0.7] what basically er er 
[0.3] do you expect do do you need to have
[1.0] well [0.5] the first thing [0.4] if you're a businessman paying for an 
employee to be trained [1.7] er [0.2] o or looking at the [0.2] management ov 
overall management checking the employees [0.3] what are at every stage your 
clear objectives [1.3] in academic qualifications [0.3] we're about developing 
the individual [0.4] about giving them as broad a perspective o on issues as 
possible [0.6] but from a business prospective [0.6] you want clear objectives 
that meet [0.5] er clear [0.4] criteria that suit the business [4.0] another 
major issue is that [0.2] the training comes in manageable components 
[1.0] so in business [0.4] yes we like to ap to apply training within some 
sort of formal structure that's got to fit in with [0.3] requirements of 
someone getting on and doing their job as well [0.4] so that training can't 
happen at a time of a year when people are [0.2] particularly busy [3.9] and 
like all good training programs this is not just due to businesses we want 
assessable outcomes [0.8] and it's actually a amazes me actually how much 
training is still out there without any assessable outcome [0.4] there any 
clear [0.3] indication as to what's been achieved [8.0] there's quite an issue 
er [0.4] especially with N-V-Qs [0.6] about the verification of standards 
because the 
idea is the N-V-Q is a workplace based qualification that you can achieve in 
your workplace [1.0] but you get big nurseries and small nurseries good 
nurseries and bad nurseries [0.4] and how do these standards all relate to each 
other [0.7] and so if somebody moves from one business to another [0.4] and 
again with an N-V-Q [0.5] in one business is that still relevant in the next 
business they might move to [0.3] it's quite a complex area [0.5] and so we 
have [0.4] er [0.5] quite an industry [0.3] actually [0.4] about [0.2] making 
sure [0.3] that er standards are verified that they interrelate to each other 
[0.5] er er and business to business as well [5.9] the other thing er [0.2] 
that you would expect to see within a er a training programme is er is a 
qualification process obviously [0.5] and that's what may well be verified [3.
3] and whatever does come out of it you want to be as widely recognized as 
possible [0.9] not just by [0.5] er within the business b b by the employees 
but also perhaps by your customers [0.9] er as well as the world at large [3.0] 
and [0.2] er i i mentioned er [0.4] N-V-Qs but there are other [0.2] er [1.4] 
er training programmes that the industry have devised to meet its own er [0.2] 
purposes [0.5] one example is er from the h Horticultural Trades Association 
the Plant Care Awards [0.5] this is a er a series of 
awards that's used by er garden centres actually [0.4] to actually [0.4] er er 
[0.6] raise the level of plant care [0.6] on garden centres [0.5] and i have to 
say some really need it [0.6] so [0.2] the [0.6] er it's an industry based 
award [0.6] but but it actually er [3.8] er it meets a lot of the criteria just 
discussed [5.0] do you have a few thoughts about how [1.0] training is to be 
managed [2.2] and [1.2] er [0.5] really the pivotal pivotal process in in [0.8] 
managing the training of employees [0.6] and the type of thing which also come 
into [0.2] er some of the audits that we talked about [0.5] 
er er [0.2] is a job appraisal [0.8] okay the process of discussing with the 
employee [0.8] er [1.4] their progress [0.9] and to a certain extent [0.6] 
their performance [0.5] of what can be done to [0.2] improve it [0.5] and 
develop it [2.4] because [0.4] from that process [2.3] er [0.4] what you should 
be able to do is to develop some sort of training plan some sort of strategy to 
take [0.2] that individual [0.6] and through that individual the business 
forward [3.4] there is a bit of er an issue which businesses have to address 
though [0.2] because if you're a business paying for training [0.8] what you're 
trying to do is er 
[0.3] develop a business primarily [1.4] as well as to develop the individual 
[0.7] and you have to work out some sort of balance here because actually [0.2] 
a lot of training [0.3] er doesn't necessarily directly contribute to business 
performance [0.6] directly but it might well contribute to that person's 
motivation [1.4] so [0.3] it's bit of a fine balance it's bit of it's bit of a 
delicate art [0.8] and it's interesting actually [0.5] er in practice i've 
found [0.3] er [0.2] working on nurseries [0.5] that it can be very contentious 
[0.5] if one if if a certain individual's been seen to be offered more 
opportunity particularly that which can't be related to their job and 
another [0.3] it can be can become a source of grievance [5.4] now it is er [0.
2] a difficult business getting the balance right [0.6] and in the U-K [0.7] er 
we had a scheme called Investors in People [0.9] have have many of you heard of 
this [1.5] 
su1357: yeah [0.5] 
nm1346: okay [laugh] some of you will have worked in businesses where that's 
been achieved [0.6] er but basically er th the object of Investors in People is 
that [0.6] i i it basically it's it's a [1.2] scheme which again is audited [1.
0] er [0.8] and it examines [1.3] er the 
process by which [0.4] er er training is managed within the business [0.7] er 
it looks to see that it's been done equitably and fairly [0.3] it looks to see 
that it's been properly reviewed [0.6] er because [0.2] an awful lot of 
businesses identify training needs [0.3] find a course of the right title and 
send people on it and then don't really determine [0.4] as to whether it was 
really any benefit or not [0.6] so quite integral to the process Investors in 
People is [0.3] not just how [0.9] er [1.3] things like job appraisals are 
carried out how training's allocated [0.4] but also [0.3] how the process is 
reviewed as well just to look at its efficacy [0.8] if you want to know more 
about this 
particular scheme er it has a website this is this is a new website [0.4] 
actually and i looked at it er [0.2] actually over the weekend and it didn't 
seem to be working properly [0.5] er [0.5] but it does exist and you might want 
to look at it in due course [7.2] now [0.2] er er really i just want to [0.5] 
er [1.5] make a point here that [0.4] er er [1.0] actually [0.5] it's something 
which i find i'm working against [0.3] all the time er er in working working on 
a working on a nursery an and that is er the issue of information overload [0.
5] every [0.2] er season [0.7] 
you find er supervisors [0.7] er team leaders getting frustrated by people not 
being able to carry out the job [0.7] that they've been asked to do [0.7] and 
[0.3] it's surprising actually [0.3] it takes a lot of experience [0.3] to to i 
find to effectively [0.5] er er develop somebody as efficiently as they [0.4] 
could be [1.6] and [0.4] er er the problem is that [0.3] it's very easy [0.2] 
to put upon somebody a lot more than they can actually [0.4] achieve [0.7] and 
er but because they can't necessarily remember all that they've been told [3.4] 
and er the point that i'm i'm making really [0.3] is that er it's very very 
easy [0.3] to expect too much from people all in 
one go [0.6] what's obvious to us [0.5] isn't obvious to somebody [0.8] first 
hand [0.7] okay when you know it is obvious when you when you don't it's not [0.
5] so inform i information overload is a is a [0.4] er er very common issue [0.
3] and quite simply it's because [0.3] perhaps on a first day of work or a 
first introduction to a new task [0.4] people are just challenged to remember 
more than they physically [0.6] or mentally can [1.0] and in fact [0.6] er 
there's a little there's a very lit simple little exercise [0.7] that you can 
do which just demonstrates the mind's capacity to absorb information [1.0] er 
[0.4] and [0.6] 
er [0.3] what i'm going to do actually i've got i've got just enough time so 
i'm just going to take you through it [0.6] can round it off with some more 
general conclusions [0.9] and it's a very simple exercise [0.2] all you have to 
do [0.7] is listen to me to s saying a number to you [1.3] and write it down [1.
0] is that fair enough [1.3] you all prepared to do that [3.7] okay so what i'm 
going to do is i'm going to s recite a number [0.9] you've got to put your pen 
on the table and when i say [0.2] write it down gotta write it down you er you 
happy to do that [0.9] now how long a number how many digits do you think 
you'll be able to remember 
su1357: no more than five 
nm1346: no 
more than five [1.9] optimistic six [1.0] more [0.9] 
su1357: seven 
nm1346: seven [1.6] it's okay [1.0] let's see how we go now the point is just 
imagine that instead of giving you numbers i was giving you a series of 
instructions [0.9] okay how much could you handle [0.9] all in one go [1.3] so 
anyway i'm going to give you a number and then you'll see what the number is 
okay [1.6] so the first number don't write it down yet just write it down when 
i say [3.2] is [1.1] seven [0.6] three [0.9] four [0.6] nine [0.9] six [0.9] 
write that down [8.2] you all written it down [0.5] don't look at someone 
else's just 
written [2.3] do this for yourself okay [0.9] okay [0.2] that was basically a 
five digit instruction to you [0.2] yeah [1.6] okay [1.9] that was the number 
[1.3] okay [1.4] did everybody get that right [laughter] i think the answer's 
no [laughter] okay i'll ask you still in the game if you if you didn't get it 
right [0.7] you're out the game 
sm1354: is there a cash prize that would make us concentrate [laughter] 
nm1346: okay i'll give you another number now okay pens down when i say you're 
going to write [0.6] you're going to write 
okay [0.8] and er it's going to be like countdown you'll get your answer 
verified towards the end okay so [1.2] okay the number is [1.1] eight [0.4] 
seven [0.7] two [0.4] six [0.6] one [0.7] nine [10.3] okay [1.9] there's your 
number [3.1] who's still in the game [2.4] okay [0.5] possibly [1.1] just over 
half of you possibly [0.3] okay [1.6] that's about right [2.0] okay your next 
number coming up [1.8] one [0.6] seven [0.7] nine [0.6] eight [0.8] five [0.6] 
two [1.0] three [13.2] that's your number [1.8] 
did you get it [3.2] how many of you are still in the game [1.5] now it's about 
half of you [1.0] okay [0.9] so [0.2] er i'll give you another one in a moment 
but the point is that er we have seven digits seven [0.5] okay [0.5] string of 
seven [0.7] er details [0.7] and it's interesting isn't it [0.3] we're we're 
very bright people and we're starting to get things [0.6] wrong [0.3] okay just 
trans just translate that into the workplace situation somebody's first day at 
work [0.5] okay [0.3] how many things are you going to be told [0.6] probably 
often in a one string [1.0] and how much of that is going to get remembered 
there's context there's reinforcement it's true there is some slight difference 
i would i would agree okay there's ways of breaking to up but we can talk more 
about that in terms of er [0.8] how often do supervisors say for example [0.3] 
i want you to take this from here to there to do that to it and then take it to 
here and then there and [1.6] then somebody's trying to do it and they started 
to try to remember what they've just been told is the point i'm making [0.5] it 
happens very very easily [1.0] 
sf1347: also once you've been told it you don't then you use it for a few days 
that's when it usually 
nm1346: that doesn't help either yeah for those of you that want to i'll give 
you a 
bigger number [laughter] well i've had er [laugh] i better not [1.2] 
su1357: no don't say that [laughter] 
nm1346: no i will then in that case [laughter] 
su1357: good 
nm1346: okay for those of you still in the game i will just give you a quick 
number and you can see if you can get it [1.6] okay [1.2] two [0.3] eight [0.4] 
six [0.5] four [0.5] three [0.4] nine [0.3] five [0.3] one [12.1] did anyone 
get that [4.0] well you're 
very clever [laughter] anyway the point i'm making is is often a ca is is often 
lot of frustration in workplace about about er er inducting new people yeah 
you're not going to get that i'm not even going to give it to you [3.0] okay 
the point i'm just making then in terms of workplace training comes back to a 
lot of the issues we talked about in terms of familiarizing staff with new 
procedures et cetera [1.5] but an information string of more distinct o [0.5] 
of more than six distinct components is liable to misinterpretation [0.8] okay 
given it all at once it [0.4] depends on the type of information depends how 
it's reinforced as well [0.6] 
but it is liable to to misinterpretation [0.5] and that actually also comes 
back as to why for example we use [0.6] er for examp er i showed you machinery 
we showed you you [0.4] know operating procedures on the machine itself for 
example [0.7] because people can actually [0.2] er [0.2] easily become confused 
[3.4] and [0.6] er so from what i've just said even the most basic new tasks 
can be better assimilated if accompanied by a written instruction [1.5] and 
again we talked about you know is it a good idea to have written work 
instructions isn't that a bit onerous [0.4] but the point [0.2] er i'm making 
here is that actually they could also be useful [0.7] okay it could solve some 
of 
the problems that we've just been talking about [0.3] already on this course [6.
0] and when we're talking about training what we've got to do is be careful to 
break down information into [0.2] manageable parts [3.0] that's what er [0.3] 
in learning [3.2] there's a few other points to just bear in mind [1.1] 
whenever you're telling any anybody anything [0.2] or trying to instruct [1.1] 
the most important poi [0.4] points in your presentation are going to be the 
beginning and the end [0.5] those are the bits that actually get remembered [0.
5] the most distinctly [5.4] and er most people have an optimum attention span 
of about 
twenty minutes [0.5] and actually this is a real issue i have with a lot of of 
managers on the nursery 'cause they sometimes run [0.4] training sessions 
actually last about two hours [0.7] okay 'cause that's the sort of regular 
working time [0.9] and you're just going to waste a lot of that time because 
their attention won't be held [0.8] that's why i like to put a break in the 
middle of our [1.2] sessions which last two hour well one hour fifty minutes [0.
7] maximum [0.8] because actually [0.5] er the efficacy of that session's going 
to be improved [0.5] if we put a break in the middle of it [4.2] and [0.6] er 
it's true though actually you can use some devices to make interesting or [0.3] 
er interesting [0.5] er if there's any notional stimulus then people are more 
likely to be fully involved [1.1] er [0.7] not something you can apply very 
much in a workplace context [0.4] but unless [0.5] er er [0.3] worth bearing in 
mind [1.0] okay i've given a very quick overview of training issues 'cause it 
seem pertinent to cover it in a context of this course [0.4] as i say we've now 
finished the key quality management component [1.0] next week er i will be 
looking at financial management [0.3] and in week [0.5] er [1.7] ten [0.5] er 
which is [0.4] er [0.5] the last er er [0.2] Thursday of term of course [0.4] 
er what i'm actually going to look at is is more 
communication issues and [0.5] er networking [0.3] personal networking issues 
just to give you an idea of wh what's to follow [0.8] i'm going to finish here 
[0.5] er but one thing i am going to do [0.4] er which won't be part of the 
lecture [0.5] er it's i am just going to take any questions about the 
assignment particularly from the M-S-Cs [0.6] er 'cause i'm getting a lot of 
questions still coming through about how to cover that assignment [0.6] and in 
case there needs to be an opportunity for everyone to hear everything [0.4] i'm 
going to do that [0.2] but otherwise [0.6] er i've finished with [0.4] with 
group as a whole for now [0.6] okay [0.5] so [0.3] thanks for that and i'll see 
you er again on Thursday