nm0349: our next speaker unfortunately cannot be with us because she's ill er 
namex who was actually going to address the issue [0.3] of problem solving that 
namex has just [0.5] just raised [0.4] er but namex has kindly stepped in [0.2] 
at the last moment to [0.4] talk about 
nf0350: railroaded i think is [laughter] 
nm0349: railroaded at the last moment to talk about the er [0.2] subject of 
evaluation [0.6] when the unit the G-P undergraduate unit was set up here at er 
namex Medical School namex has been one of the people who has been [0.4] 
pivotal in making it [0.3] move forward because we've had to [0.3] recruit [0.
2] recruit G-P training practices [0.5] and we've had to recruit hospital 
teachers we've had to run training courses for the [0.4] teachers in general 
practice [0.3] and hospital [0.3] and we're shortly going to be running an 
examiners' course [0.4] at er the namex end for for namex students [0.7] and 
namex is [0.6] coordinating [0.2] all of this activity [0.4] 
one of the other [0.2] important [0.3] aspects of this and namex [0.3] raised 
it right at the beginning [0.2] was about evaluation [0.4] who is evaluation 
for [0.3] and we do have a system of [0.2] evaluation at the moment and [0.4] 
one of the questions we've been asking is what do we do with it [0.4] how can 
we improve the quality [0.2] of evaluation [0.3] and the Q-A Q-A-A is going to 
hit namex very shortly [0.4] and with the evaluation that we're getting we're 
going to be seen to have to do [0.4] something [0.2] with it that may change [0.
3] the way the course is run at the moment [0.5] and namex has run er [0.7] a 
project in relation to evaluation [0.2] our students on the Clinical Methods 
course [0.4] where students are attached in general practice to learn [0.2] 
consultation competencies [0.2] in clinical medical practice but in [0.2] the 
general practice setting [0.4] so namex is going to explain this to us so i'll 
[0.2] [laughter] hand over to namex thank you [0.3] 
nf0350: 
i'm sorry this is not going to be as long or as exciting as namex's would have 
been but it'll fill a little gap in the agenda [0.6] er [0.2] just to give you 
some history er i think generally er [0.3] it's accepted that feedback from 
students er using the questionnaire [0.5] is er [0.4] is not always working [0.
2] simply because the students don't always return their questionnaires 'cause 
there's no incentive for them to do so [0.7] er so [0.3] myself and my 
colleague from namex University namex went on a course in London lames led by 
er Professor namex [0.5] to learn about how to gather and respond to student 
feedback in other ways other than using a questionnaire [1.1] and the reason 
for making sure that we do get this feedback [0.5] is [0.3] that [0.4] mainly 
[0.5] there are [0.3] there are two issues the the quality assessment assurance 
agency [0.4] er [0.8] which will be coming to namex in March [0.4] er and [0.4] 
also because the White Paper that was released by the government in January [0.
5] 
er in [0.3] er one of their sections chapter four that [1.0] er [0.2] 
underlines the fact that they want information from students the feedback to 
become more transparent [0.4] and they want this information out into the 
public domain [0.3] as already happens in Australia and the U-S-A [0.5] er 
which is a little bit worrying because er as soon as that information gets into 
the public domain students will start making their choices on what other 
students have said so [0.4] we need to make sure that the information we're 
getting in [0.3] if it's er [0.2] if it's not so great we're actually acting on 
that and and following it through [1.3] so [0.4] the system [0.4] er [0.3] 
namex proposes [0.7] is called the er student [0.3] consultation process [0.5] 
er it's not to take away from the value of using questionnaires which does have 
its place for gathering [0.2] qualitative information [0.4] but we still need 
to think of a way of getting students to make sure they complete those forms 
and fill them back and a good way of evaluating that information 
when it's in [1.5] and over this [0.2] er consultation period i'm going to 
cover the the principles of the the consultation how that information's fed 
back and and conclusions and suggestions [1.5] so the the way we do this is we 
get the students together halfway through their course so that and it's always 
after a lecture they know that we're taking them seriously [0.4] they think 
that we're listening to them and we are gon-, we're going to re-, form a report 
and we're going to act upon what they've said [0.8] and the question that we're 
always asking them is that [0.6] that we're interested in in what's affecting 
their learning [0.4] which has a more positive er thought process if you were 
to phrase a question such as er [1.8] what i-, what is i-, [0.2] good or bad 
about your teaching they will automatically start thinking of negatives this 
teacher's [0.3] this teacher's not teaching us this or [0.2] we're not getting 
this [0.4] er whereas this gets them thinking more in terms of the whole course 
[0.4] and you will get negative stuff coming out 
but [0.4] it's what tends to happen and from experience they will say [0.3] 
well this isn't so good have you thought about doing this so they're making 
positive recommendations for change [0.3] themselves [7.8] so [0.2] basically 
er it's an opportunity for the students and the staff to work together in 
processing ideas and opinions [0.6] to [0.2] to [0.7] come together as a 
collective to work on ways forward [0.7] and the idea is that [0.2] because the 
students are [0.2] er aware that it's confidential the [0.2] the sessions are 
run by somebody who's not involved in the teaching whatsoever [0.4] so in the 
case of the Clinical Methods course [0.3] i normally run them because i i [0.3] 
don't have any influence one way or another [0.3] and the students aren't 
afraid just to tell me what they think [0.4] er and they do tell me what they 
think [laugh] [0.8] er and [0.8] after that er process has happened the 
evaluation is built up in the form of a report [0.5] er [0.9] that [0.2] is 
broken down into sections and from this 
the student will liaise with me afterwards to to confirm that the report's okay 
and that they're happy with the report [0.8] from then on the process is taken 
to the next level which is almost the most difficult because [0.4] with the 
feedback that you get some of it is negative and that has to be fed back to the 
tutors or the hospitals or the G-Ps concerned [0.6] but there is a way of 
feeding it back with again the [0.2] the highlighting the positive [0.3] 
recommendations [0.7] and the worst for us is always the hospital feedback [0.
6] but er [0.3] we're we're slowly er [0.3] making changes and meeting with the 
undergraduate coordinators so [0.2] so things are moving along [2.3] er [0.9] 
one of the things [0.2] that he er says is to make sure you know how you're 
going to address a situation should the should they arrive so [0.6] are you 
going to discuss it with individuals alone [0.2] or or in a group and we've 
been meeting as a G-P group and then er feeding out the information [0.4] to 
the hospitals once we've agreed how we're 
going to feed it back thereafter [3.2] er [0.9] it's important to have the 
whole team involved [0.2] in this and to take on board what is coming back [0.
4] and to all work forwards to [0.3] to improve the course for in all aspects 
departmental teaching G-Ps hospitals [0.8] er and making sure that all the 
reports that we're building up along the way have these actions closed off so 
that should anybody [0.2] from the Q-A-A ever come and look at those reports 
they're always closed off or we can say that they're in action so we're 
thinking about doing this [0.4] we're trialling this [0.4] er and and so on [0.
6] so [0.3] that's [0.2] basically how the student consultation process works 
and we've just trialled it er in two Clinical Methods blocks [0.2] for the 
moment [0.5] er and the feedback we've had has been very very productive [0.2] 
er [0.4] and very qualitative and full of suggestions and actually we've taken 
on board a lot of the s-, the students' suggestions so far [0.5] er and we're 
trying to work together with the hospitals and the 
G-Ps to to improve things so [0.6] that's it [0.7] 
nm0349: thank you 
nf0350: [laugh] [1.3] 
nm0349: any questions at all namex [0.4] 
nf0350: [laugh] [0.4] 
nf0351: i think it's it's really encouraging to hear that er [0.3] such you 
know such steps are being taken to make your student feedback really is 
activated [0.4] in particular er [0.4] i think it's great that the individual 
tutors are getting individual feedback [0.6] and i think that that's a very 
different situation to the sort of [0.7] evaluation forms that you mentioned 
earlier [0.4] what we'd be really interested to know though is er is how how 
that's er perceived [0.7] by the tutors er [0.2] i think you made one comment 
in particular about er with a big smile on your face when you said particularly 
enjoyable [0.2] feeding back to the hospital [laughter] consultants [0.4] 
nf0350: yeah 
nf0351: 
er [0.2] er i-, if you don't mind i'd really like to understand a bit more 
about er [0.4] how that process is going down with the tutors [0.4] 
nf0350: er with the tutors in the department we've only had very positive 
feedback so we've been quite lucky [0.6] [laughter] er [0.2] with the 
consultants the way i-, [0.3] or with the hospitals the way we're working it is 
that [0.2] i'm going via the undergraduate coordinators [0.3] er because some 
of the problems that have arisen are not [0.5] are not s-, [0.2] they're 
they're not a personality thing some of it is organization it's pressure on the 
fact that they're in hospitals [0.4] er it's underresourcing it's understaffing 
staff have had to go away for certain reasons and [0.2] and that causes all 
kinds of problems so sometimes it's just an initial this has happened [0.7] and 
there'll be a an immediate answer which is acceptable because you know people 
do go off sick and people are 
nf0351: mm 
nf0350: 
under pressure [0.4] er and other things that we're working together with the 
hospitals on such as [0.4] er a specific f-, piece of feedback is that the 
students don't feel that they're getting er [0.9] the same [0.3] learning 
experience across the three hospitals that we use so we're working to form a 
logbook with all three hospitals so that we can [0.2] check the correlation and 
make sure they're all getting the same kind of experience so [0.3] so far we're 
all working really well as a group together [0.3] 
nf0351: it does it does certainly does sound like that and we'll [0.2] touch 
wood that that [0.3] that continues for 
nf0350: 
nf0351: yourselves and for all of us as well [0.4] one thing that did cross my 
mind although we all hope it never happens [0.3] given the sheer volume of 
doctors that you know are spread across [0.5] X number of teaching hospitals [0.
7] if it did arise where perhaps er [0.4] some quite serious feedback was 
coming back from [0.9] a significant number of 
students then there might be a serious problem with perhaps the attitude of a 
member of staff or that [0.3] blocks of teaching were being missed 
nf0350: mm-hmm 
nf0351: er and i hope it doesn't happen [0.3] i-, if it did [1.0] is there some 
sort of system in place where that that would be addressed 
nf0350: mm-hmm [0.3] the mechanism involved would be er [0.2] the the route 
through the university so from the consultation process [0.4] if it came up 
with a pesic-, particular consultant then m-, then my route is to discuss that 
with namex as the G-P director 
nf0351: right 
nf0350: [0.3] and then we would go out and see the director of the particular 
hospital and discuss it with him [0.3] er [0.3] because we won't get involved 
in other people's managerial structures 
nf0351: i understand 
nf0350: or or that kind of thing or or or taking a lead on that so it's for [0.
8] to remain in the hospital domain but [0.2] with us saying just raising an 
issue that that was raised up by the students [0.3] 
nf0351: 
that's really interesting thank you [1.2] 
nm0352: can i make a comment er [0.8] the medical school is very young [0.3] 
three to four years [1.0] when we [0.2] er [0.7] accidentally with being the 
Bosworth group [0.6] start a meeting up [0.4] i didn't even realize what we 
were into [0.7] the vast majority of hospital consultants who are teaching our 
students [0.2] have never been through this [0.5] training process 
nf0350: mm-hmm 
nm0352: this sort of thing [0.2] 
nf0350: mm-hmm [0.2] 
nm0352: will be absolutely normal to some of my surgical [0.4] colleagues who 
have never been through courses [0.6] and we evaluate it in people [0.2] in the 
meanwhile [0.8] now the students is a big generation gap these students have 
gone through [0.3] very new methods of teaching [0.5] the psychologists and the 
educators are coming up with new methods of teaching [0.4] out there my 
colleagues [0.2] who are teaching clinical methods [0.9] learned it from their 
peer groups without any [0.3] teachers training college or any approach [1.1] 
and we are evaluating consultants students are giving opinions about [0.3] 
consultants to the best and then you mention [0.3] all the difficulties 
consultants have resources et cetera 
nf0350: mm [0.6] 
nm0352: 
so i think the evaluating process needs to be looked at in a different way too 
[0.5] we need to get our consultants back into the educational process 
ss: mm 
nm0352: and expose them to the most [0.5] recent methods of teaching [0.7] as 
opposed to and yet we're evaluating their methods 
nf0350: mm [0.3] 
nm0352: i wonder if you have comments on that 
nf0350: one of the things that er [0.2] namex has started doing is running er 
courses for consultants for er that are available to the consultants in the 
three hospitals that are linked to namex University [0.5] er and we've run one 
[0.5] already that we've had very positive feedback on from the consultants 
that attended and from the students [0.4] who then saw the changes er in how 
they were being taught which was very productive towards their final assessment 
[0.5] er and namex continues to run those courses so we are 
nf0353: with exactly that in mind [0.2] but so i mean it's the most important 
thing that we're [0.3] sort 
of trying to do is to is to get some uniformity across the teaching [0.5] be 
and to make sure that everybody's teaching from the sort of singing from the 
same hymnsheet and doing it in the same way [0.5] but it has been very well 
received and it's er it's going well [0.4] 
nm0354: good [0.4] 
nm0355: good you can say it's well received but [0.5] i can't imagine in one 
session or two sessions [0.4] you can give to those consultants who are 
teaching [0.6] er [0.3] to students [0.3] what we are getting in the courses 
over [1.0] weeks and probably years i think we need to get those consultants 
out of the [0.5] er work situation [0.6] put them into situations like these [0.
4] so that they go back into teaching and modify their methods of [0.6] er so 
if you were to analyse [0.3] like what we are hearing about microanatomy of 
consultation skills [0.8] i don't think my colleagues are used to that method 
of 
nf0353: they aren't and but Rome's not built in a day 
nm0355: no of course 'cause i mean 
nf0353: the first thing we need to the first thing we need to 
the very first thing is is to enter some sort of relationship with your 
consultants between the general practitioners the department and the 
consultants [0.3] so the first g-, [0.2] they haven't got time to come on long 
courses [0.3] but if they develop an interest and if every time [0.3] we forge 
a relationship and we build on that [0.3] say for instance er we're running 
these consultant workshops [0.3] been developing a log i'm very keen when we've 
got this logbook to send it out to [0.3] the [0.2] er fourteen consultants who 
came to our first workshop [0.4] and ask them [0.2] to develop it to think what 
their skills are [0.3] and also to ask them what their idea is how they can 
take things forward because it [0.2] we can't [0.3] get a group of consultants 
and tell them [0.2] to do it our way [0.6] and in fact we can learn from their 
way if you like [0.4] but they need t-, to be invited to think about it [0.3] 
and to talk to us about it so that's really the aim of it [0.4] it's really a 
liaison between consultants and [0.3] G-Ps 
and the department [0.5] and trying to develop that and it's going to be very 
slow [0.2] but i don't know any other medical school that's doing that [1.0] 
you know i think there are good [0.2] links up for instance in namex i know 
that they talk a lot to their consultant colleagues and they have very good 
relationships [0.5] er as you say we're a new university so we have to develop 
that but i don't know anywhere where that's actually sort of [0.4] you know 
trying to get consultants in and trying to do that so i hope that [0.2] we will 
get [0.3] benefit of it but i think it's going to take an awful long time [0.4] 
nm0356: and it's also extremely encouraging that the students have reported 
back that the consultants who've been on the workshop [0.3] are now teaching in 
a more structured way [0.3] so although it is er it's only a day's course there 
is some uniformity coming from it so it's it's [1.0] it's going to carry on 
being run isn't it namex 
nf0353: yeah i think they're looking to carry on 
nm0356: just going to keep on keep on dripping dripping away at it's been very 
good 
nf0353: 
it's just so far so good i think but yeah [0.2] yeah [0.3] 
nf0357: er [0.2] how do you protect the confidentiality of the students [0.6] 
'cause if [0.2] the contents 
nf0350: the students er 
nf0357: of the specific feedback 
nf0350: yeah 
nf0357: going to guess where that's coming from 
nf0350: the reports go er as a collective [0.5] er the [0.5] w-, when they're 
all in here there's twenty-six on each Clinical Methods block [0.4] er [0.2] 
they just sign in so that i know on a on a completely separate sheet of paper 
just that i know if everybody has actually [0.2] been in in the room [0.4] er 
but there is no student's name mentioned at all anywhere in the report unless 
they specifically want me to mention it which none of them have so far [0.6] er 
and the only persons whose name [0.3] the only person whose name goes on 
the report is the student that's asked to witness the report [0.3] is an 
accurate account of the meeting that i held with them [0.3] and they volunteer 
for that position and they just read it through and sign it off otherwise then 
that is completely confidential [0.2] it remains between me [0.2] and the 
twenty-six students that i spoke to [0.2] 
nf0357: you don't need a name do you if you [0.2] if you get nega-, negative 
feedback from the group of students that you've been teaching [0.2] 
nf0350: mm [0.6] 
nf0357: you may well have some idea [0.5] which particular students have given 
that negative feedback [0.3] so how do you protect [0.5] them from that [0.5] 
nf0350: well with the hospitals i mean there's a group of eight [0.3] students 
in there [0.6] at one time [0.2] with the department we have groups of eight [0.
2] students [0.3] at one time [0.3] so it's protected that way [0.2] as regards 
to students one on one teaching in a general practice [0.4] er the feedback [0.
5] is clarified by the 
questionnaires [0.3] er which the the G-Ps have access to anyway on an annual 
basis [0.4] so er the information there that's [0.4] that's put together there 
is going to be exactly the same as in public domain have they not had two video 
sessions or [0.2] did they not have enough professional teaching sessions [0.4] 
that kind of thing and they're all in this questionnaire anyway the G-Ps have 
been receiving [0.4] er er it's coming from namex and namex has used it very 
successfully there so [0.4] that feedback's always been well received and 
they're keen to receive it 
nf0357: mm 
nf0350: so [0.4] 
nf0351: do you think it's about clarifying your objectives on that because er i 
think perhaps the situation that [0.3] crossed my mind then is [0.6] what if 
there was er a particular instance with a particular student and a particular 
tutor [0.3] where if that was logged it couldn't possibly be any other student 
but the one that was present 
nf0350: right 
nf0351: at 
the time when it happened 
nf0350: mm-hmm [0.3] 
nf0351: i think that's where you're starting to cross into the boundaries 
perhaps in personal tutoring or student counselling scheme 
nf0350: mm-hmm [0.3] 
nf0351: and so i think as er f-, [0.2] it sounds like you've set up very 
clearly defined [0.4] boundaries is that what i think 
nf0350: we do provide pastoral care as well 
nf0351: right 
nf0350: and any student has pesic-, specific issue has a pastoral care tutor 
dedicated to them [0.3] and that pastoral care tutor also liaises between [0.3] 
G-Ps and the student and the hospitals and the student er 
nf0351: right 
nf0350: and she's there for all phase two students er as well as the phase two 
coordinator [0.3] er 
and the phase two administrator namex at the back [0.5] er [0.2] [laughter] so 
we have [laugh] [0.5] we had er lots of people in place that will deal with 
specific issues [0.3] er with the pastoral care tutors involved or to li-, to 
listen to them [0.4] 
nm0349: [0.6] 
nf0358: can i ask a more general question do you know that the students' 
understanding of their objectives from this course are the same as the 
consultants' [0.2] or the G-Ps' understanding of the objectives of the course 
[0.5] 'cause when you're getting feedback from the students presumably you're 
getting feedback as to whether it's meeting the students' objectives on your 
course 
nf0350: mm-hmm [0.2] 
nf0358: now there may be quite a different understanding as namex was saying 
about what the consultants think the students are [0.5] 
nf0350: mm 
nf0358: well what their objectives are and how did you [0.4] look at that [0.4] 
nf0350: 
well there there have been some issues similar to that already raised where 
there there is clearly a difference in what the students believe and and what 
the hospitals believe [0.4] er generally in the level the teaching is pitched 
or or that kind of thing but [0.5] we can only reinforce the the way the 
assessment is carried out and again by by use of introducing the consultant [0.
3] the consultants' workshop that namex runs [0.4] er and making sure that all 
th-, [0.4] the objectives of the course outline are [0.2] hi-, er [0.3] are are 
sent to everybody so that the students and the consultants know [0.4] and the G-
Ps [0.2] know exactly what the assessment is er made up of and and how will 
their this going to get there over this eight week clinical block [0.6] 
nm0349: er the objective is to 
nf0358: the it's it's partly asking what the understanding of the consultants 
of that information is really [0.2] 'cause telling them about what the 
assessment is isn't necessarily 
nm0349: but 
nf0358: 
telling them the same thing about what the objective is 
nm0349: the objectives are very very clearly defined and the it the students 
are actually told that on day one 
nf0358: right 
nm0349: there is a handbook that goes to the consultants the G-Ps [0.2] and the 
students [0.3] and the objectives i think appear on the i'm right in saying 
think they appear on the first page and they're very very clearly defined [0.3] 
and certainly during the first week [0.5] they're repeated and repeated and 
repeated as to what the objectives of the 
nf0358: 
nm0349: course are 
nf0358: when you get more feedback is it suggesting that actually the 
consultants are working to that objective [0.7] when you're saying you're 
getting negative feedback and getting 
nf0350: mm 
nf0358: it about the hospital [0.4] is is that [0.6] illustrating that there is 
a difference in perception of objectives [0.6] 
nm0349: 
the er er [0.2] i think th-, there is [0.2] between some of the hospital 
consultants [0.4] but that was the reason for us setting up this course for [0.
4] er consultant workshops [0.2] exactly it's exactly the same course [0.3] but 
it's run for the G-P teachers in [0.4] in practice because obviously [0.3] 
those G-P teachers if they haven't been on the course would have a different 
perception [0.5] of the objectives but i think i'm correct [0.6] correct in 
saying that [0.4] i don't know if namex wants to [0.3] 'cause you've been doing 
this for many years i don't know if you want to throw in anything [0.5] 
nm0359: well i think we have very similar problems in terms of [0.2] a 
discrepancy in student view [0.7] the teaching they get from G-Ps and 
consultants now that [0.5] i think that partly that's a a generic problem [0.2] 
of [0.3] delivering teaching in hospital settings [0.4] generally [0.7] er [1.
1] but i think [0.2] i mean the processes that we've used i think [0.6] er [0.
6] one [0.4] pitfall which you are aware of and that i think we have to avoid 
it [0.6] is how you 
provide [0.3] negative feedback and essentially it is negative feedback [0.5] 
to our consultant colleagues teaching on this course and of course it is 
perceived as originating in the Department of General Practice [0.7] and i 
think that's made difficulties for us in our relationships with the hospitals 
[0.4] and of course we have no [0.3] no form of control over the activities we 
have no we don't recruit the consultants for the teaching [0.4] er [0.2] we 
deliver the feedback to the [0.3] responsible people within the hospital [0.5] 
but that's really as far as it goes and i think [0.4] over a period of time the 
perception of the consultant colleague that [0.2] i don't want to get involved 
in this course because i don't want to be compared with G-Ps who get wonderful 
feedback all the time [0.6] has made it hard to sustain [0.5] quality teaching 
in the hospital setting so [0.2] and we have [0.5] two or three consultants who 
[0.2] are fully signed up to the objectives of the course understand it to 
teach according to those 
objectives and get excellent feedback [0.4] on a par with our G-P teachers [0.
5] now we have a number of conscripts who get [0.2] terrible [0.2] feedback [0.
2] 'cause they [0.2] don't know what they're doing and they don't want to be 
doing it [1.4] 
nm0349: i mean is 
nf0350: the i think that er the [1.7] the feedback that we got after the first 
consultants' workshop from the students was that [0.2] they d-, n-, noticed a 
visible difference in the teaching [0.4] of the stu-, er of [0.4] from the 
consultants in the four weeks [0.2] previous [0.2] that they'd been with them 
[0.4] t-, to [0.2] and then there was the consultants' workshop and then they 
still had four weeks in the in with the same consultants [0.3] and they noticed 
er an amazing difference in that [0.3] it seemed that the consultants and the G-
Ps were now headed in the same direction [0.5] with the level of teaching er 
and the objectives of it so [0.5] i i think the the course has been quite 
productive in in helping to align [0.4] everything [0.5] 
nm0349: 
and and also we're we're very lucky er [0.2] at this end because namex has 
already mentioned it because of this thing called the Bosworth Consultant [0.6] 
Educators' Group [0.3] we have [0.2] been working closely together and one of 
the things that's actually developed from this and that's the reason a lot of 
people are here today [0.4] is this Master's in in Medical Education course [0.
5] so that we are trying to work together on it but one of the new ideas that 
we implemented was this con-, [0.2] consultant [0.5] consultants' workshop in 
relation to the Clinical Methods course [0.4] we're going to be running one two 
in relation to the examiners' course for the [0.4] intermediate clinical 
examination and final clinical examination [0.3] it's been a wonderful 
opportunity as well for [0.3] consultants and G-Ps to meet together and [0.4] 
share ideas i mean obviously there are [0.2] different as namex's pointed out 
[0.4] perceptions in [0.4] in objectives but er [0.3] but i think we're war-, 
working very closely [0.4] together on that [0.4] can i say a really big thank 
you to namex for stepping in at the [laughter] at the last moment [6.2] just 
going to break for tea in a second one one of the things that this has also has 
raised in my mind listening particularly t-, to namex's talk [0.7] namex and 
namex are going to both very shortly be taking graduate entry students and one 
of the things that we've learned at the namex site about graduate entry 
students is [0.3] they're very much educational consumers [0.5] er [0.2] 
because unlike the sixth form entry students a lot of them haven't had to make 
the same particularly economic sacrifices [0.4] one of the students at our 
practice recently [0.3] was spending half their time working in Costcutter [0.
3] on the university campus to generate enough income to stay on the course [0.
5] so that if they do get teaching which they perceive [0.3] is not adequate [0.
3] they are very very quick to tell us about that [0.4] er almost [0.2] it 
happens almost instantly [0.3] so this is one of the reasons we were very keen 
to [0.3] er generate a new a new system of evaluation [0.7] er for those of you 
that are on the Master's [0.2] module today [0.5] i i'm because i'm on it as 
well i've felt very much that the [0.5] er presentations that we've been given 
have given us great insight into what is the title of the module [0.3] 
effective teaching [0.4] i hope you'll agree with me but perhaps disagree with 
me over at coffee time [0.4] [laughter] if necessary [0.3] we're going to have 
one more er talk after coffee because we've [0.2] talked very much on the the 
area [0.3] of [0.2] effective teachers but as teachers we all have learning 
needs as well [0.4] and we're going to talk a little bit about the issue of 
writing personal development plans and perhaps meeting our own needs [0.3] as 
learners and teachers in a sort of [0.4] combined way [0.3] coffee again is in 
[0.2] seminar room one [0.3] and we'll meet again at half past three in here 
for the final [0.4] final session