nm0321: i've been asked a question by one of my colleagues as to how we get to 
lunch when this session [0.8] has ended obviously lunch is a very important 
event today [0.4] [laughter] er [1.0] should it be raining and hopefully it 
won't be raining it [0.3] we would be able to er offer [0.4] sort of minibus 
transport but the idea is that we'll [0.4] walk er [laughter] [0.3] past the 
ducks [0.6] near the lake and on towards the Arts Centre [0.4] and myself and a 
few of my colleagues i'm sure will [0.3] lead you in the direction to [0.3] to 
Eat restaurant you'll certainly need to walk back because you'll need to [0.4] 
walk off some of the [0.2] excess lunch that you [1.1] [laughter] er [0.4] have 
eaten [0.6] 
nm0322: [laughter] [0.8] 
nm0321: now i'm going to [0.2] introduce our [0.2] next speaker [0.3] er namex 
has [0.4] led into this session [0.4] very nicely er posing questions about 
medical student selection [0.5] and particularly in relation to [0.5] attitudes 
and [0.3] what part [0.3] 
that may [0.3] play in the selection process [0.5] my colleague Dr namex is [0.
2] a lecturer [0.4] here at the medical school in general practice and he's 
also [0.4] a general practitioner [0.5] in namex [0.4] and [0.2] for this 
session Dr namex has joined us as well who's the [0.3] admissions tutor for the 
[0.4] medical school [0.3] here [0.2] so [0.4] i shall pass over to 
nm0323: okay [0.4] thank you 
nm0321: to namex [0.2] 
nm0323: yeah thanks very much [0.7] er [0.6] er [0.3] the earlier session [0.3] 
on attitudes of er [0.4] medical students and er [0.5] medical professionals [0.
4] is a important lead-in to this particular topic [0.9] er i'm quite 
interested in this and er i've been looking into [0.4] our selection procedure 
at namex Medical School [0.8] okay [0.8] for the purpose of this presentation 
what i thought i would do is i'd look at current issues in the selection 
process [0.3] which are [0.2] in the literature at present time [1.4] er [0.4] 
i will [0.6] give you an overview [0.3] of the selection process at namex [1.1] 
and then [0.3] now that 
will be about twenty slides so i'll be going fairly fast at that stage [0.4] 
and most os-, most of us have been through the er selection process so we'll 
understand it fairly quickly [1.2] and er [1.5] in the third section i'll look 
at some possible areas of research [1.4] in the [0.2] selection procedure [1.1] 
and also report on a statistical analysis we've done of the interviewer scores 
[0.6] okay [3.7] current issues in selection [1.1] you may have come across 
wider access for underprivileged [0.3] er educational and social background [0.
6] people [1.6] er [0.5] then there's the personal qualities assessment [1.2] 
and common admissions tests for all graduate entry courses [0.5] which has 
really b-, er [0.6] just been talked about but i thought it would be [0.5] 
useful to bring it to [0.2] your attention [2.3] the underprivileged [0.9] er 
[0.4] is quite contentious and problematic [0.8] it is desirable but [0.4] it's 
really addressing inequality with further inequality [0.8] er but it's worth 
noting that 
something like seventy per cent of medical students are from very [0.2] 
privileged sort of backgrounds [1.1] and the first university who [0.6] er 
started looking at this area was Bristol around about two-thousand-and-one it 
was reported in the [0.7] news items [0.2] er they were giving something like 
two Bs and a C [0.3] er [0.3] gradings for [0.5] entry into their medical 
course [0.6] for [0.8] pupils from [0.6] inner city [1.4] secondary schools and 
things like that or comprehensive schools [1.5] and this year Saint George's er 
Hospital have er [0.3] this sort of policy i don't know whether it's a general 
policy or whether they're just kind of looking at a certain percentage say ten 
per cent or fifteen per cent i'm not entirely sure [0.5] but it was in the in 
the press that they are [1.1] looking at it this year [2.2] psychometric 
testing [0.7] quite a lot of work currently going on [0.8] it's quite prevalent 
and the origins are from U-S-A and Australia [2.3] and basically it focuses on 
[0.6] students who have empathic [0.2] attitudes [1.5] and 
if you are looking at this area [0.5] one wonders that [0.2] perhaps you could 
give lower grade offers [0.7] and [0.2] Durham this year i i think Professor 
Hamilton [0.8] is is reporting that he would look at [1.1] look at students who 
have this sort of empathic attitude [0.5] much more favourably and perhaps give 
lower grade offers [1.1] and of course when you're looking at this area you 
begin to think whether [0.5] it might be a useful [0.3] tool [0.5] er [0.2] to 
look at low numbers to interview because it is very labour intensive [0.8] er 
at namex we had er five-hundred interviews [0.4] and i-, i-, it is hard work [2.
0] the Scottish universities have got two [0.2] cohorts of er five-hundred [0.
3] voluntary P-Q-A [0.5] assessment [0.9] er this is [0.2] the the there are 
five universities involved [0.8] and er [1.5] there is er 
nm0324: sorry what's P-Q-A [0.7] 
nm0323: er P-Q-A [0.2] personality er [0.4] personal qualities assessment [0.5] 
it's sort of attitudes really [1.4] er they're they're looking at er five-
hundred volunteers [0.7] okay [0.5] h-, who have taken this P-Q-A [0.3] test [1.
1] and [0.3] of 
course [0.3] er [0.9] there is a long study which i'll describe in a minute [0.
5] and the areas of interest er [0.5] primarily are [0.6] problem solving [0.2] 
capability [0.2] and personality traits [2.2] and this study which has yet to 
be er reported upon the preliminary resu-, results will be out say in the 
autumn time [0.3] but [0.8] the prelim-, preliminary results are already being 
talked about and that's where i come in [0.5] there's a lady called Dr Lumsden 
from Glasgow University she's the admissions tutor i guess [1.0] and they 
looked at two cohorts of er five-hundred students in two-thousand-and-two 
intake and the two-thousand-and-three intake [0.8] and they're hoping to follow 
up these students [0.3] er for up to ten years [1.2] and this is to assess 
whether pre-admission psychometric scores can accurately predict [0.4] their 
medical performance [0.5] I-E [0.2] the area they go into and how high [0.3] 
they kind of rise in the ranks [2.3] as i said the preliminary results will be 
reported later on this year [0.8] but the 
interesting remark was [0.3] according to the testing they've done so far [0.3] 
something like a hundred-and-twenty-eight [0.5] out of the five-hundred-and-ten 
that's quite a [0.4] high percentage [0.6] er are judged to be unsuitable for a 
career in medicine [7.5] actually just going back [1.5] the areas of interest 
[0.4] er [0.2] the P-Q-A test [0.4] they did find [0.6] er that the test was 
much more useful for problem solving capability [0.3] than it was for 
personality traits [0.6] but i ask you to bear in mind that these people [0.9] 
are fairly intelligent but they have been chosen [0.6] okay [0.4] so they may 
ha-, already have the right sort of personality traits it's not kind of [0.5] 
er [0.5] er a whole population [0.3] study [0.2] it is very much focused on the 
people who've already been accepted [4.8] the common admissions test [0.2] er 
we have a graduate entry programme at er namex [0.5] and there is a proposal 
from Oxford for [0.2] a common admissions test [0.2] at the present time [0.6] 
er i'm aware of 
another workshop [1.0] for for development of this common admissions test on 
fourth of July and i think this is towards the end of June and namex has been 
invited to this [1.1] essentially the workshop er is being held and they hope 
to agree on what core knowledge skills and values [0.6] are important in 
medical students [0.5] and they would obviously look at the quality issues and 
validity and reliability [0.5] and they will monitor all of that [0.5] and 
they're hoping to tender [0.6] er to a test contractor [0.9] and they're 
thinking of [0.4] implementing this by two-thousand-and-five it's it's a tall 
order but i thought i'll bring it to your attention that [0.3] these things are 
being talked about [0.7] and what the rights and wrongs that may be [2.4] okay 
[1.2] now i'm going to really speed up er the selection procedure at namex it's 
based on the Leicester model [0.9] er this is the fourth year of selection [0.
6] we're going through [0.8] er [0.2] it's based on [0.5] the best current 
evidence and advice that is 
available [0.9] and i make reference to [0.3] the er [0.9] the Committee of 
Heads of Medical Schools [1.0] er Tomorrow's Doctors [0.2] the General Medical 
Council i think [0.4] fairly familiar with that [0.5] and How To Do It er an 
article in the B-M-J by Powis [0.6] and it was in nineteen-ninety-eight not 
nineteen-eighty-eight [0.6] that's an error on my part [1.7] the heads of 
medical schools essentially [0.5] say that the [0.2] selection process must be 
transparent [0.8] i mean that's [0.8] political correctness and everything else 
and [0.5] fairness too really [1.5] er the process must identify core qualities 
[0.2] those are both academic [0.3] and personal [2.0] and we're looking at er 
highest standards of personal conduct for obvious reason [0.7] and it's er 
incumbent [0.2] for for [0.3] er [0.2] potential students [0.5] the applicants 
to disclose criminal records [1.7] and equally [0.3] primary du-, [0.2] duty 
being to the patient they've got to disclose infectious diseases [0.6] and any 
disability [0.7] now this does not bar them [0.3] from entry into medical 
school but [1.2] there is a panel which assesses what sort of disability and 
whether they would be suitable for [0.4] a medical career [1.3] and i think the 
same would apply what sort of criminal record there is [0.2] but it is 
incumbent for them to [0.2] disclose that [1.7] the entry criteria as i said 
academic ability and a suitable personality [1.7] and the selection process 
involves er written application through UCAS i'm sure you remember [0.2] and [0.
2] nowadays [0.4] er [0.2] it involves a [0.2] personal statement [0.8] er 
there's a competitive interview [0.4] finally it's an admission tutor's 
decision [0.5] whether they are offered a place or [0.3] rejected [1.6] er the 
written application [0.4] again [0.2] looking at academic ability [0.3] er [0.
3] from biological sciences we don't have any arts students or engineering 
students here [0.8] er we're looking at two-one upwards [1.1] er [0.5] 
supportive referee is [0.2] important [1.2] and some personal qualities [0.6] 
and a strong bias towards works experience in the medical profession [0.4] and 
i'll come to that a little bit further on [1.7] er [0.4] what do we mean by 
personality [laugh] [0.9] communication skills and [0.2] empathy with patients 
are very important [1.2] er settled and demonstrable [0.3] motivation [0.5] to 
the profession [0.8] and a suitable personality which is kind of an overall 
assessment for the practice of medicine [3.0] and we judge these [0.5] through 
a referee's report [1.0] and the written material which they provide [0.7] i'll 
come on to that in a minute [0.4] and of course the interview [1.2] and it's 
not an exact science [0.2] i think everybody admits that [1.0] er we give them 
a supplementary [0.3] er application form [0.3] which allows them to [0.6] 
expand [0.4] er on their personal statement in a very structured way [0.5] and 
i'm going to quickly run through the the the huge number of questions about ten 
of them we we ask why do they want to do medicine [0.4] what sort of 
recrecationa-, recreational activities 
they might be involved with [0.9] some sort of insight into medicine what's 
kind of important er ethical issues [0.6] for the [0.4] current sort of times 
[1.0] er works experience [1.3] we're looking at patient centred [0.5] er 
explicit dates and details because somebody can go there for an afternoon 
versus you know [0.5] a very close [0.2] observational and [0.2] active role [0.
6] in a hospice say [0.8] and [0.4] more importantly what did they learn [0.2] 
from this [0.7] and how do they feel about it [1.0] er [0.9] more importantly 
for namex this one is to describe their degree course because you can then 
assess whether that is suitable for [0.7] er for for our intake [0.2] or not [0.
5] and i know for a fact that he goes to great lengths trying to find out you 
know what the [0.2] structure of the c-, degree course is at various 
universities to make a [0.5] more informed decision [1.6] and this all of this 
helps to decide who interview [0.9] and also [0.2] how we structure the 
interview [1.4] and [0.5] i'll come 
to that in a minute [1.6] the assessment of the written application is done by 
a pair of course [0.2] selectors [0.8] er up till this year it used to be two 
people [0.2] now there are [0.3] two pairs involved [1.0] er [0.2] if there is 
a discrepancy [0.3] er [0.6] because they give a numerical score [0.6] er then 
an adjudicator comes in to decide whether they interview or not [0.8] er so far 
er i mean [0.6] we only had er one pair now we've got two pairs there's fairly 
good concordance at the present and i'll put a question mark this is something 
we will be [0.4] looking at and seeing how it sort of evolves [2.1] and er 
something in italics i thought well it's interesting er if you could er [0.2] 
look at the concordance between the [0.2] er the the [0.2] er numerical scores 
from the written application [0.5] and the interview score and if they concord 
very well one wonders whether we need to interview at all maybe that's just a 
[0.7] question [0.2] [laugh] [1.5] why interview [1.0] historically it's always 
been er the 
selection was on academic grounds [1.1] and it was really to reject the 
seriously unsuitable [0.9] and of course there's a lot of literature and a lot 
of commentary [0.2] that er [0.3] er academic performance is not [0.2] 
necessarily a good predictor of the personal qualities that we're looking for 
and those mentioned in the [0.6] er document Tomorrow's Doctors [0.7] okay [3.
6] the interviewers [0.3] er [1.3] i did this presentation only two days ago 
and [0.2] one comment was well the interviewers they must [0.4] have certain 
sort of [0.3] biases and that sort of thing maybe they should also sa-, [0.4] 
some sort of psychometric testing [0.6] so [0.4] er that's an interesting 
comment [0.5] er [0.2] last year [1.0] we had er [0.3] two training sessions 
one was a workshop [0.7] and then we had a training session looking at er 
simulated er [0.3] interviews [0.7] and the aim was to really calibrate 
numerical scores how to assess the students and er [0.2] the whole process [0.
6] er last 
year we had forty-two interviews [0.7] er mainly academic staff clinical staff 
[0.2] and some medical students [0.9] and i think [0.2] the future we may be 
looking at some lay interviewers [0.7] not completely lay [0.3] sort of 
thinking like maybe social workers maybe nurses and that sort of thing with 
appropriate training [0.6] and how that would work out and pan out we don't 
know this is just a proposal at this stage [3.4] we have two interviewers [0.6] 
we try to mix the clinical and the academic [0.7] er it lasts twenty minutes [1.
4] we're not supposed to give any indication to the student how well they've 
done [1.2] they might go with the false idea that they've got in and they may 
not have and could cause problems [1.0] and we give independent numerical 
scores [0.3] er [0.2] they're on three [0.3] three three er levels [0.2] and 
i'll come to that in a minute [0.6] but it's important for the [0.2] 
interviewers [0.3] to write down comments [0.6] of what their base [0.6] their 
their scores are [0.6] so that if there's comeback they're able to 
actually say why [0.5] they did well or did not do well [0.3] i guess it'll [0.
6] be the people who are rejected who might come back so it's important that we 
do that [1.1] this is just a process [0.4] now [0.6] w-, [0.5] we we we the the 
the two interviewers have a game plan [0.6] and er [1.0] one goes out [0.6] er 
[0.3] gets the er candidate tries to make them relax [0.7] the usual 
introductions you know [0.3] have you had a decent journey that sort of thing 
[1.3] and in cer-, essentially we pick up on topics [0.5] and we try and judge 
[0.8] all the qualities that we're supposed to be judging [0.2] through a 
discussion of topics related to medicine [0.9] it's not an academic test and 
that that's an important consideration [1.2] er namex Medical School has no set 
questions [0.3] however all the interviews do have ready prepared questions 
that we use [1.2] and of course the [0.2] S-F-A which is the er supplementary 
application form with all the details [0.2] we use [0.2] some of the material 
[1.1] and we ask questions [0.2] from that [3.0] 
and like i said you need some sort of game plan as to who's going first and 
what sort of things they might be asking so that er [1.2] you're not [0.2] 
repeating yourself [0.6] the criterion to be judged by are communication skills 
motivation to do medicine and general suitability [1.1] and this is what we [0.
2] mean by communication skills [2.6] it really comes out as a by-product it's 
not something [0.2] you directly ask [0.6] we're really looking at [0.2] good 
presentation [0.6] and [0.5] issues about being good listeners [0.8] and their 
ability to develop discussion [2.0] and so forth [1.0] er we talk about non-
verbal communication again it's the way they sit it's the way they come across 
the way they relate to you [0.2] it's all important [3.0] motivation for 
medicine [0.5] obviously important [0.5] er we're we expect the s-, [0.4] 
candidates to have some [0.6] idea what the curriculum is [0.4] and one of the 
[0.2] questions asked is [0.6] what do you 
think about the sociology modules which are [1.0] which are [0.2] er [0.8] er 
[0.3] taught very early on in the course [0.4] and that is usually a good 
discussion point [0.9] realistic er commitment to a career in medicine [1.4] 
appreciate the challenge [2.5] a knowledge of career structures [0.2] you know 
sort of houseman [0.4] S-H-Os [0.2] registrar grades and that sort of thing [2.
9] and awareness of current issues in medicine and the sort of things that [0.
2] come up is er if you were the er [0.8] Minister of Health you know [0.6] how 
would you do his job differently and why [2.1] general suitability [0.3] we're 
looking for determination perseverance tenacity [3.1] and have an interest in 
other people and how their decisions may affect other people [1.2] er [0.2] 
ability to manage stress [0.5] and look for advice [1.1] and also this feeling 
that they can share [0.4] difficult [0.2] problems with other people [1.1] okay 
[1.5] er the decision [0.7] well [0.3] if they [0.2] they've already passed the 
written application assessment [0.4] so if they get 
high scores like twenty-nine thirty [0.6] er we score one [0.4] to five [0.3] 
in the three categories [0.4] so if they get twenty-nine thirty they're likely 
to get an immediate offer [0.9] if their scores are low [0.3] round the twenty-
five they'll probably get a r-, [0.7] rejection immediately [1.0] and the ones 
in between going to [0.3] the hold list [0.5] which is dependent on [0.5] just 
how the interviews are going how the other people are [0.2] responding [0.2] 
because if we select [0.2] a candidate [0.3] they may reject us of course [1.2] 
so that's all important and finally to aim at a precise figure [2.2] rejected 
candidates have a right to know why [1.0] the admission tutor gives written 
feedback on request [0.4] and if they've fallen down on communication skills 
and things like that [0.4] they can be encouraged to [0.2] apply again [1.5] do 
we get it right [0.9] i guess we need to know er have some knowledge what 
happens to the people we reject [0.3] if they get accepted on other courses 
maybe they're [0.4] really are good candidates and we're not picking them up [0.
9] er feedback from those who reject namex [0.3] i know that that some 
questionnaire has been sent but i haven't got enough er [0.3] information on 
that as yet [0.7] we would look at [0.2] the dropout rate [0.4] and the failure 
rate in subsequent sort of years [1.5] the research question [0.6] i pose is 
that [0.9] there are two interviewers [0.8] how well do we assess the candidate 
[0.3] and what's the level of concordance between the two interviewer [0.2] 
scores [1.4] obviously that would need some sort of regression [0.6] er data 
analysis [0.8] what level of concordance would be acceptable [0.9] and we 
really tried focusing on sort of further training of interviewers [0.2] in 
terms of how to pose the questions [0.7] and [0.2] that sort of thing [2.0] i 
think most people are [0.2] pretty impressed with the way they pose questions 
in the orals for the M-R-C-G-P examination they use five minute time slots [0.
5] and they usually flag up the theme first [0.9] and [0.4] then 
follow it up with the specific question [0.2] all the usual things open 
questions first [1.1] set the scenario [0.8] and then follow up with discussion 
[0.3] and then you close it up with closed questions and may actually say [0.3] 
what would you do in that situation [0.6] and you know get them to sort of 
commit themselves [1.4] er [0.6] this sort of [0.3] approach may be seen as 
problematic by some people [0.2] I-E if you have a theme to discuss and an area 
to discuss [0.3] and if this candidate does freeze [0.3] well do you stick with 
that same game plan [1.3] it's open to discussion at the present time [1.6] er 
[0.2] if we do do this sort of training i guess we could follow it up with some 
qualitative interviews of the selectors has it improved their technique do they 
feel more comfortable [0.2] do they think the outcomes are better [0.7] we 
could do a further analysis of the concordance factor [1.2] okay [0.3] er [0.2] 
now this is interesting [0.5] we did look at er [0.3] at the the statistical 
analysis of er [0.5] nine 
interviewers [0.6] er [0.7] these are [0.2] nine interviewers who've done the 
majority [0.3] of the interviews they've done more than twenty each [0.3] and 
it's only meaningful if they've done [0.2] a lot of interviews [0.9] so it is 
it's only applicable to those [1.4] here are the anonymous interviewers here [1.
3] these are the number of interviews they actually did [1.3] and this is their 
mean scores [2.1] and this is the standard deviation of their scores [1.6] now 
using this particular test called Kruskal-Wallis [1.3] test [0.8] you're able 
to compare the scores of A [0.6] independently with B C D [0.7] and so forth [1.
5] and if the difference [0.3] is significant [0.4] and for three of them [0.5] 
it came [0.3] as significant [0.7] from that [2.1] we identified er three 
significant outliers [0.2] of which we two [0.2] er identify two doves and one 
hawk [0.6] so [1.9] it's a bit of advice from the admissions tutor to them say 
if they're in any doubt [0.6] the the the hawk might [0.6] up the mark [0.4] 
and the doves might sort of lower the mark [0.9] 
okay i've covered a lot of things here [0.3] and i'm open to questions and [0.
2] to back me up namex will join in as well [0.4] thank you 
nm0321: a-, an-, any questions for for for namex or the the admissions tutor [2.
0] 
nm0325: as a as a non-medical person here [0.3] er [0.2] what what [0.6] 
information would you expect to get from the psychometric test you prefer to 
have [0.5] er [0.7] probably a silly thing to say but [0.2] because they're 
graduates do you expect a more [0.4] mature [0.6] personable mature attitude [1.
1] than you would if they were coming in at an undergraduate level [2.3] 
nm0323: right [0.2] er [1.4] the the er [0.6] there were two areas that [0.2] 
primarily focused on [0.3] okay [0.6] er one was their ability [0.3] to problem 
solve [0.6] okay [1.5] from that they did find a [0.4] good range [0.8] and [0.
7] the deduction was there was a number who weren't good problem solvers [1.6] 
and equally with the personality traits but i did point 
out er w-, with the personality traits the attitudes [0.7] er we had a 
discussion earlier on [0.5] they may [0.5] know how to answer the questions [0.
3] so it may not be an honest response [1.2] and the other thing is they're 
already a selected group [0.7] okay they've already been [0.5] admitted [0.5] 
so in a way you would expect them to have the right sort of attitudes [0.9] but 
if they were given to sixth-formers [0.5] a thousand sixth-formers say [1.0] 
then it might [0.2] actually help you to discriminate [1.7] who would be more 
suitable [0.2] for the interview stage [0.3] 
nm0326: er can i jump in about the P-Q-A 'cause there's a whole bundle of P-Q-A 
tests out in that run as you probably know [0.5] the one that's [0.2] being 
used this summer [0.4] that i know about was used by Queen Mary [0.4] 
University London [0.2] Bart's and the London Hospital [0.7] it's personal-, [0.
2] personality [0.3] personal qualities assessment test is basically [0.3] 
aimed at trying to discover whether the candidate [0.3] 
has the right abilities of empathy and things like that [0.4] and the point of 
the test really is to exclude those [0.4] who do not have [0.3] er these 
suitable traits for medicine rather than to rank order them [0.5] so it's a 
useful thing to get rid of those with two heads [0.3] but it's not a useful 
thing to decide those who we should call to interview 
nm0323: that's right [0.7] 
nm0326: er [0.2] the i have actually looked at that test [0.5] er and the way 
the sort of questions it formulates really aren't [0.6] so much problem solving 
and as indeed personality testing [0.4] the sorts of questions that you that 
that they pose a scenario [0.3] scenario i remember [0.4] is that you are a a 
man with a relatively modest salary u-, r-, living and working in a country 
where there's no National Health Service [0.4] and your wife is seriously ill 
[0.2] and you need so many thousand dollars in order to buy the treatment you 
haven't got that money but you have the opportunity to embezzle it from your 
firm [0.9] and then a whole string of questions are asked about that [0.3] and 
then the scenario is slightly changed [0.4] er another string of questions is 
asked about it [0.3] and they're actually quite subtle and quite interesting i 
f-, [0.3] well [0.2] there's no failing but i f-, [0.2] rather feel i did 
dismally badly in it [0.6] [laughter] er okay [1.2] the point is [0.3] with 
this you get you put [0.2] if you think of a dot plot [0.3] of personality 
characteristics [0.3] you you will get [0.2] a cluster of dots in the middle 
who are the people that you would regard as suitable [0.3] and some guys on the 
periphery [0.4] who would you you would regard as not suitable [0.4] at Queen 
Mary's er they applied the test to i think a thousand candidates [0.3] and 
excluded three-hundred-and-fifty-odd [0.5] er on that basis [0.4] now [0.7] 
that might [0.4] be a f-, a fine way of going about things if you're wanting to 
homogenize the profession and end up with a bundle of guys and gals who are [0.
2] right sort of touchy-feely [0.4] sort of things [0.3] but inevitably by 
taking that approach you run the risk of excluding those who are going to be [0.
3] excellent histopathologists [1.0] and so one has 
that sort of doubt about it [1.5] there are other doubts [laughter] the other 
doubts are that people can learn how to do these things [0.3] and the 
experience in countries where this sort of testing has been used is that fairly 
fairly quickly [0.4] there have sprung up private schools which will train you 
for a price how to pass that test [1.0] and so on [1.1] er [0.2] though the 
question was asked whether it gives us information we don't already know the 
answer is of [0.5] course [0.8] not really but it quantifies it and makes it 
transparent i mean if you spend enough time in interviewing and and getting 
people to write essays [0.3] as they can for example in Oxford spend two or 
three days with candidates in Oxford don't they [0.5] if you've got that sort 
of time available [0.3] then i'm quite sure you can f-, [0.2] do the same sorts 
of things as a P-Q-A test would do [0.7] quite sure of it [0.3] we can't don't 
have the time [0.3] so there is an argument that [0.2] to exclude the outliers 
if that's what you want to do you can 
use P-Q-A testing but there's no need to do that [0.8] it's not not for ranking 
[0.4] you were also asking about something about [0.3] whether we feel that 
graduates should be more mature indeed we do [0.5] er [0.6] er one of the 
things that namex has mentioned is this issue about er work experience when we 
say work experience what we mean [0.4] is that they should have got real hands-
on some sort of caring experience hands-on working with people in some sort of 
fashion it doesn't have to be [0.4] in a medical environment although that's 
obviously preferable [0.8] thing about our [0.3] candidates since they're in 
their early twenties [0.3] we would have expected them to have got this sort of 
er experience of their own volition [0.5] er [0.6] to candidates that come from 
school that have done this they've been told to do it [0.3] by their teachers 
[0.4] okay [0.2] so there is a difference and and that's how we [0.2] how we 
look for this sort of more mature attitude [0.5] er [0.3] that's how we do that 
i think [0.3] certainly graduates should be regarded as potentially well 
potentially [0.3] more 
than more mature than school leavers [0.5] 
nm0325: thank you [0.3] 
nf0327: can i just ask has anybody ever done P-Q-A on people coming out the 
other side of a medical degree 'cause i would say all of us [0.4] when i went 
through it 
nm0326: yeah 
nf0327: changed a lot personalitywise 
nm0326: yes [0.3] no not yet [0.3] er well i don't know about [0.2] Australia 
[0.2] what you're saying is a comparative test 
nf0327: mm 
nm0326: to see how the personality changes over the five years of medical 
training [0.3] i'm not aware i that that may be out there but i'm not aware of 
it [0.6] the P-Q-A testing [0.4] 'cause it's a fairly recent phenomenon of 
course the United States have been doing [0.4] er all sorts of testing for 
medical school entry for years and years and years now but they're different 
kinds of tests they're not 
really personality tests they're [0.4] cognitive tests cognitive ability tests 
and reasoning tests that have been done there not so much [0.4] i think we have 
to clearly distinguish between [0.5] er the empathic [1.0] dare i say it touchy-
feely characteristics [0.3] and the problem solving characteristics which are 
both equally important but separate [0.9] and the the first kind the empa-, you 
know [0.4] empa-, [0.2] the touchy-feely stuff hasn't properly been [0.3] got 
into yet [1.4] 
nm0328: can i just ask have the interviewing panel done them [1.5] 
nm0326: done what 
nm0328: personality tests 
nm0329: [0.6] 
nm0326: er 
nm0330: 
nm0328: can can i tell you why i'm asking the question 
nm0330: 
nm0328: i'm asking the question because i think if you're measuring the empathy 
[0.4] and [0.2] you kind of need to do the test yourself so you can measure it 
nm0326: 
i do entirely agree you're absolutely right and i say i have sat it but i think 
i did dismally badly to be honest [laughter] er [0.7] but [0.6] from a 
practical point of view it simply isn't possible er we we 
nm0328: yeah 
nm0326: have been faced with er [0.3] vast numbers of candidates to interview 
to get an interviewing system up and running from scratch from nothing [0.5] 
nm0328: yeah 
nm0326: in a very short period of time [0.3] in an ideal world [0.4] er i would 
what i would want to do is s-, indeed select the interviewers [0.4] and the 
criteria for selecting the interviewers are going to be [0.4] difficult [0.5] 
to decide upon [0.5] er namex did mention that we're thinking about taking some 
lay interviewers this this year [0.4] er i shall probably start that off by 
looking for half a dozen people [0.5] er and i shall ask them to provide C-Vs 
and references and i shall int-, we shall interview them [1.4] and take it from 
there [0.3] but i'm find it diffi-, well er i i i don't know if i would find it 
difficult to ask er lecturers from the G-P unit here to go through that 
procedure [0.6] er i i might find it fairly easy to ask them but whether they 
would find it easy to do it acceptable to do it i'm not sure [0.7] er there is 
a an element of difficulty so if i 
nm0328: yeah i just think it's an interesting question because it's a measure 
nm0326: yeah 
nm0328: against what what's happening for the students so the students are 
going through that process 
nm0326: yeah 
nm0328: and this test is saying 
nm0326: yeah 
nm0328: you can't you are clearly am-, empathic person 
nm0326: yes [0.5] 
nm0328: that may not meet with the interviewers' expectations [0.2] 
nm0328: indeed [0.2] indeed 
nm0328: 
and you and therefore 
nm0326: i mean you have 
nm0326: you've got issues running the test haven't you 
nm0326: you have touched on a very serious issue which is training interviewers 
how do we train interviewers [1.2] er and to be honest er i'm open to advice [0.
4] [laughter] absolutely [0.3] 
nm0331: i don't know [0.3] [laugh] [0.4] 
nf0332: i was wondering the same thing about communication skills because i 
think it's it's relatively easy relatively easy for any professional to make [0.
6] a judgement about how [0.5] they felt about the candidate in front of them 
[0.6] but and i think the training issue's really really key 'cause when you 
talk about communication skills a shared understanding what would of what [0.6] 
level of communication skills can be expected from or are appropriate to a 
candidate will be helpful [0.7] 'cause just from observing people i've got a 
theory that people tend to rate highly communication skills that are similar to 
their own [0.5] which means that 
an interviewer who [0.3] whose own personal style is to be very professional 
sit up very straight 
nm0326: yeah 
nf0332: and behave in a ver-, in in a particular way [0.5] would actively 
prefer a candidate doing the same [0.8] a very expressive interviewer 
nm0326: well yes 
nf0332: might feel naturally drawn to a very expressive candidate 
nm0326: i i again i take your point er 
nf0332: i think the training's crucial i mean 
nm0326: training is and the the way we did [0.3] w-, the way we trained er was 
we [0.2] put up [0.7] er [0.6] er dummy interviews er and they're very good 
dummy interviews 'cause one [0.2] candidate interviewed very badly and the 
other candi-, candidate these are actual students not candidates 
nf0332: yeah 
nm0326: 
obviously we couldn't do it with candidates [0.6] er the one student 
interviewed very well and the other student interviewed rather badly [0.6] er 
and we got the interviewer [0.6] er interviewers we were training to score [0.
4] er [0.2] all the various criteria we were interested in in the way we do in 
a standard interview [0.3] and surprisingly [0.4] the the [0.2] they were quite 
tight scores [0.4] er i should have brought along the data [0.2] er which i'm 
going to accumulate over the coming years [0.4] but in fact [0.4] there was not 
much experience [0.4] er and it looked as if [0.4] er the interviewers were all 
doing much the same thing [0.3] well now you can come back quite rightly and 
say well that's not at all surprising 'cause all these interviewers are the 
same people basically they're all [0.4] medics [0.5] middle-aged mostly white 
all of them European no not all of them [0.3] you can see what i mean a a 
rather homogeneous group of 
nf0332: yeah that's where your lay panel come in presumably which i think is a 
great idea 
nm0326: 
beg your pardon 
nf0332: that's where you lay panel come in presumably it's well it's a great 
idea 
nm0326: well [0.3] well yes [0.2] there there are serious constraints upon on 
[0.2] the whole business of interviewing and and that is resources [0.4] er [0.
3] because [0.3] i feel it's very important that it should be at least one 
medic on the [0.2] interviewing [0.5] panel without any question [0.3] the 
other person [0.2] we only have two i would prefer to have three [0.3] the 
other person i feel should be non-medical [0.4] but 
nf0332: yes 
nm0326: i'm very broad-minded about what non-medical means you know i'm not i'm 
i'm a biochemist by training [0.5] er but i've been so much associated with 
medicine so for such a long time i can't really call myself non-medical [0.3] 
nf0332: mm 
nm0326: er but i know er er [0.3] a J-P not a G-P a J-P [0.5] whom i feel would 
make a very good interviewer [0.5] er in this situation [0.4] so i would like 
to [0.2] have the variety in the interviewing panel [0.3] to do what you what 
you suggested we do but in practice [0.4] 
i think i'm going to be strapped [0.2] to two interviewers for ever [0.8] 
nf0332: i hope you get three 'cause it sounds a really good combination 
nm0333: it does it sounds brilliant [1.3] 
nm0326: yes [laughter] 
nm0334: namex can i ask er sorry i'm chatting through er how many of these 
students [0.4] have had interviewing [0.5] er done er practice before [0.7] 
like for senior registrars and and junior doctors we [0.5] they ask we train 
them up for interviewing [0.3] i'm sure when they go for their [0.3] interviews 
they do quite well [0.6] do the er er schools provide them [0.5] interviewing 
it's all very good when you look at their marks everything they do 
nm0326: mm 
nm0334: er they've been selected in a particular way [0.3] i'm sure if they've 
had training in interviewing [0.3] and communication skills [0.4] they'll come 
and perform better then [0.4] and the second comment was so many er managerial 
and professional [0.5] one i interviewed one [0.4] this gentleman said i'm i'm 
i'm er from a labouring family [0.4] and straight away made me empathic towards 
him 
nm0323: mm [0.3] 
nm0334: i i i actually [0.4] 
felt er he he was making a case [0.5] er that he's coming from a poor family [0.
2] 
nm0323: sure [0.2] 
nm0334: and and er it's such a small number [0.5] are there and i think those 
people will make better doctors i think [0.4] er er a-, and and i wonder 
whether you've got any comments whether we should give them [0.4] a special er 
er er [0.9] approach [0.4] 
nm0323: well the second part i think namex will answer the first part er i will 
answer [0.6] we don't have any real idea how much training they actually have 
had [0.6] i know for the local schools er i am invited to do some interviews 
for them [0.3] and some of the consultant colleagues there [0.4] so yes they do 
get a lot of practice [0.5] so this goes back to the age-old argument [0.5] 
that if we're looking for certain personality traits or certain ty-, er way to 
interview we can train them [0.5] but one could argue and that's just er a view 
that i hold i mean even attitudes can be taught [1.0] but certainly 
communication skills can be taught i mean although there's a little argument 
over the attitudes but [0.3] 
they do shift [0.4] in a way [0.8] so if somebody [0.2] has got bad 
communication skills at say point A [1.5] if they go through Clinical Methods 
course the DISC course and all the the ones that's run by the Department of 
General Practice we improve all of those [0.6] so they are [0.2] we are able to 
teach them that [0.5] so one wonders they whether that should actually be a bar 
or whether that's just a value judgement we make [0.3] at a point in time [0.4] 
and we've got to really [0.2] give preference to the people who've already [0.
4] got these traits and the right sort of communication skills [0.5] so we 
don't know what level of er [0.6] er [0.5] training they're being given [0.2] 
nm0326: when when we have a group of candidates in for interview about thirty 
or so at a time [0.4] i often ask them how many of you have been to competitive 
interview before [0.6] er and it's [0.2] about half have had some sort of 
experience of competitive interviewing [0.5] have been competitively 
interviewed i should say [0.3] the other half have not because these days [0.4] 
er it's very rare [0.2] for people to go into serious competitive 
interviews in a university for example [0.6] er in the Department of Biological 
Sciences [0.4] er we wanted to attract them in we aren't [0.2] trying to [0.3] 
sort out [0.2] sheep and goats [0.5] [laughter] so i suspect that the answer is 
that those who have [0.2] been to competitive interviews especially if they've 
got a middle class background and gone to private schools [0.3] will have had 
some training [0.8] a lot of our candidates [0.3] have not been through that 
situation [0.3] and i do not know how we can compensate for that i wish we 
could compensate for that [0.3] i don't know how we can [0.8] er but what i try 
[0.2] try to do [0.4] is if a guy has bounced and he asks me why [0.5] er and 
he's [0.3] done badly in the interview because of his [0.3] er communication 
skills i make that very clear to him [0.6] and i say if you want to do better 
[0.3] you've got to do something about that get some practice and advice on how 
to how to [0.5] how to er [0.3] present yourself at an interview [0.5] so the 
issue you bring up is very important [0.5] sadly there's nothing we can do 
about it because we can 
only judge [0.6] what's in front of us at the time we can't [0.3] we cannot 
judge potential there's no way no way we can we we can [0.3] can imagine that 
we could [0.3] so if a guy communicates badly at interview sadly [0.3] that's 
it [0.2] however good he might be [0.4] [sniff] [1.7] going to 
nf0335: 
nm0326: people ask 
nm0336: 
nm0326: but er [0.3] sorry 
nm0336: yeah sorry [0.2] er er [0.2] i mean just just extending on to that 
point i mean er er er looking at the er er the explanation of the process the 
the it's a twenty minute interview but ten minutes are used for paperwork [0.8] 
and so effectively it's only ten minutes 
nm0326: no no no 
nm0323: no that's additional 
nm0326: twenty minutes interview plus plus ten minutes 
nm0336: oh okay 
nm0326: er the ten minutes is intended so that the interviewers can [0.2] 
develop [0.3] strategy for the interview [0.3] and think about the assessment 
afterwards [0.4] 
nm0336: okay [1.0] 
nm0326: 
there are two possible ap-, [0.5] there are two strategies for interview 
broadly speaking one is [0.2] the situation where you [0.3] the the 
interviewers go in completely cold without any background information [0.3] and 
develop [0.3] a d-, er er er a discourse with the candidate now that takes time 
'cause you've got to explore [0.2] and you ask the guy what his name is for 
example [0.4] 
nm0336: yeah 
nm0326: the other approach is that you use prior information to structure the 
interview [0.5] if you've got lots of time [0.2] then the first is very good [0.
5] if you haven't got lots of time then you have to use prior information to 
decide how you're going to organize so the five minutes before the interview [0.
3] for the guys to do that 
nm0336: yeah [1.1] 
nm0326: er so we have a chat you say i've noticed such and such and such from 
the papers i i will kick off by saying such and such why don't you follow up by 
such and such [0.3] and that's how it goes [0.5] 
then after the interview we spend two or three minutes thinking about it and we 
[0.2] put our scores down [0.7] okay 
nm0336: so so it lasts ten to twenty minutes so 
nm0326: twenty minutes 
nm0336: i i i was going to er s-, my point was you know is it [0.2] i-, i-, is 
it er er er enough time for them to do interviews [0.2] is fine [0.3] and 
that's sufficient time for [0.2] doing justice to the candidates 
nm0326: i have thought about this and i have talked to people about this er 
particularly i er namex put up very quickly er the name D Powis P-O-W-I-S [0.5] 
he is [0.2] his background i-, he's English but he's moved to er er Newcastle 
[0.3] in New South Wales some time ago [0.4] he's dean of admissions there and 
he's been [0.4] very much involved in development of interviewing techniques 
and so there's lots of stuff in the literature if you want to find it [0.8] er 
[0.9] he says that [0.3] if you define [0.6] the the personality traits you're 
actually looking for [0.3] motivation [0.4] suitability [0.7] er ten 
minutes [0.3] in a properly organized interview you can make some s-, objective 
judgement on those traits [0.4] he says one trait [0.3] per ten minutes 
provided it's properly structured properly thought about and the interviewers 
are trained [0.8] so [0.2] in our twenty minutes we can look at two traits [0.
9] communication comes as a bonus you don't need to separately judge 
communication because if the guy can't answer your questions then he can't 
communicate [0.6] so that comes as a bonus [0.6] so given the limitations of 
resources er the way we thought about it i think [0.6] it's practical and works 
[1.1] 
nm0334: you one this social cul-, er racial thing about er er i-, in this er 
way [0.3] 
nm0326: sorry 
nm0334: er er in people from ethnic backgrounds [0.2] er have anybody looked at 
this [0.4] i-, in terms 
nm0326: 
nm0334: of communication skills 
nm0326: i know 
nm0334: are they at a disadvantage in terms of 
nm0326: 
well it's very early days you er thi-, this is [0.5] h-, how many 
nm0334: okay 
nm0326: samples have we been through this is our of the cohort 
nm0323: four [0.2] 
nm0326: four [0.2] 
nm0323: four [0.2] 
nm0326: four now you see it's not much 
nm0334: the the students have been very empathic towards people from [0.2] 
ethnic backgrounds 
nm0326: mm 
nm0334: i i sometimes feel they're not performing well [0.3] 
nm0326: mm-hmm 
nm0334: i ask the students they they tend to be very empathic towards [0.6] 
Afro-Caribbean people and they give them er i notice they give a score [0.7] 
that is even more better than my score sometimes 
nm0326: you shouldn't be looking at the scores [laughter] 
nm0334: when when we compare later on s-, it does [laughter] come through that 
they [0.4] but i think this is important 'cause people who are come from 
deprived background who may be performing 
nm0326: yes 
nm0334: 
badly but they can become good doctors later on 
nm0326: possibly but how can we judge that i mean we can be empathic can be 
sympathetic i think is perhaps the right word in this 
nm0334: yeah 
nm0326: context [0.4] to somebody who isn't speaking well because English isn't 
his first language or whatever [0.4] but you know [0.3] well this guy 
eventually has got to work with patients and if he can't communicate then [0.6] 
er then he's not going to make a good doctor [0.5] so we can only judge on the 
information we have at the time [0.6] and as i say if somebody bounces and asks 
me and i say it's because you didn't communicate well well if he then fixes 
himself up properly and applies again [0.2] you know and he s-, does better 
fine [1.2] but i i can't i think we must not be we must be very careful to 
guard against being overly sympathetic [2.7] 
nm0321: can we just [0.4] can we just have one more question i think namex was 
going to [0.5] ask a question [0.2] 
nm0337: 
er well it's [0.4] well it's partly a question and [0.4] and [0.3] partly an 
answer perhaps [sneeze] er [0.2] i-, it seems 
nm0326: thank you [laughter] 
nm0337: thinking about it it s-, [0.5] it seems that training people to be 
interviewers is very analagous to training [0.2] medical students to have [0.2] 
good consultation skills it's an element of interpersonal skills and then there 
is also an element of problem solving you have got to gather some data [0.4] 
and you've got to analyse it and interpret it and possibly gather some more 
data [0.6] so [0.7] it [0.3] i would have thought that the best training 
programme would be something that was modelled on how we train consultation 
skills i mean given that we come from medical schools we should be very good at 
that [0.4] so i'd have thought that the the the training would use the similar 
s-, range of techniques [0.3] er 
nm0326: er absolutely you you're you're right er actually [0.6] i've only been 
involved with training [0.9] once 
so far [0.3] previously the training was done from namex [0.7] er and it i i'm 
very keen that we should develop our training programme and this is precisely 
what namex and i are are talking about right now is how we should develop the 
training process [0.5] you you're very right to to separate the these two 
things about [0.5] being able to communicate and being able to assess data 
you're absolutely right and that's a very sensible structure [3.7] 
nm0321: big thank you to namex and [0.7] namex for that session [4.3] i'm sure 
the conversations will continue [0.4] over lunch [0.4] er we will now lead you 
[0.3] down to Eat [0.2] at main campus [0.3] could i just say anybody who is 
speaking from two o'clock onwards if we could get [0.4] if they could get back 
here for one-fifty then we can [0.4] load their disks for Powerpoint if that's 
okay [0.5] otherwise we'll restart at at two o'clock [0.3] er [0.4] if you want 
[0.7] namex at the back and myself will [laughter] [0.3] lead you lead you to 
lunch