nm5188: one was commissioned by er the people that lived on his estate and it 
was considered to be a glorification of his image and one he had commissioned 
himself which was of him in his kitchen now the critical review is which is the 
best painting er it's the same with business sponsorship the Midland Bank's 
sponsorship of the Proms concert has come under a lot of criticism but i would 
point it the other way and say why don't the arts council stand up and actually 
shout out how well they do and what percent they contribute to the arts in this 
country you cannot fault Midland Bank for being a good marketing organisation 
that is why they've got the credit they have got implicitly the criticism is to 
the arts council for not actually standing up and shouting about the 
contribution that it makes to arts funding in this country so therefore the 
sponsorship isn't bad in itself it is the way that it's reflected so it comes 
down not to is sponsorship bad but its the implementation of sponsorship and 
the important thing that i think that gets left out more often than not is th-, 
th-, the emotion and the practicality and if you can actually either have a 
technical argument about sponsorship or the implementation of sponsorship it 
will make the discussion much easier
nm5189: and theres also the questions raised the other question raised is the 
question of framework as well of what you know talking about sponsorship in 
isolation is not i'm afraid the best way you need to look at it in the context 
as put it this idea of plural funding context where money is coming from a lot 
of different sources er and whether sponsorships we've' talked about the layer 
of icing on the cake and one of the questions we have to ask ourselves is 
whether the icing is getting bigger or the cake is getting smaller and this is 
one of the things that Amstra put forward you know and they've argued about 
saying we need we're not arguing for sponsorship to take to to become the cake 
we want sponsorship to be something extra so they've actually been lobbing for 
for the government funding to stay at at levels consistent to keep to keep 
sponsorship as an extra not as a substitute mm as one would expect
sm5190: yeah but you could disagree with that because er government funding has 
been freezed for years which means in real terms when you take inflation into 
account there has actually been a pro-censor pro-censor er decrease
nm5189: yeah in real terms yeah
sm5190: in real terms and er it it seems that many smaller organisations have 
become dependent on even those few five percentage which sponsorships ma-, ma-, 
make out but er as er Joseph put forward you can create your amount of time of 
getting those five percent of income but they're still dependent on you
nm5189: but the other er 
sf5191: like it holds a balance of power you know like you say about the 
government you can have a small party that holds the balance of power it's like 
sponsorship is that extra money that makes makes the gap meet between pros and 
grants and er raising costs er so perhaps that's why it's more powerful than it 
should be according to its size
nm5189: the er yeah no extra the extra is what makes the job worthwhile er 
sf5191: is what makes the system run
nm5189: and also i suspect mot- in terms of motivation the extras within within 
work are often what motivates people to enjoy what they're doing so the extra 
projects that you are able to get sponsorship for may be the most interesting 
things that you're doing rather than bread and butter and and and that may 
explain why people spend spend time on on sort of getting money fundraising for 
particular projects whereas actually of course you know the time you spend on 
your annual grant application proportionally given the amount of money you get 
out of it you're probably getting a better cost benefit ratio there but you can 
see why people want to pursue that
sf5192: and also and it also seems that mm the question of profile is important 
and although it might just be five percent there is actually five percent of 
the funding is going towards something which is going to raise the profile of 
the arts and criticism towards the arts council is that it doesn't raise its 
own profile and it doesn't raise the profile of the projects that it works with 
so why not use the five percent of funding for business to actually get your 
name known or the project the arts project you're working on known
sf5193: isn't that what's happened with the royal theatre that the journal did
nm5189: journ- journ- would actually want to call themselves the er 
sf5193: yeah
nm5189: wanted to be called the journal theatre
sf5193: journal theatre obser-, obser-, or something like that
nm5189: yeah and admits and actually the festival studio theatre at Chichester 
i think it's the Mitsubishi studio is that right the er 
sf5193: yeah
sf5194: its Gulbelkian
nm5189: yeah
nm5188: ah but th-, th-, the interesting thing about Gulbelkian's basics is 
that Gulbelkian is a historic supporter of community projects not necessarily 
just the arts and the decision of Gulbelkian as a person was philanthropic so 
that was not sponsorship that was philanthropic giving to society in general 
and i don't believe er 
sf5194: so is it a business can't give something for a philanthropic claim or 
er 
nm5188: i think that it is extremely rare er for a business to find any 
justification for philanthropic giving er in in maybe twenty years ago maybe 
ten years ago a chief executive could have the power and authority within a 
company to make a personal decision which is about as close as philanthro-, to 
a philanthropic decision as you can get but it was still a business decision 
philanthropy is basically mm not return other than societies return so i think 
you you have to take away mm Gulbelkian from the equation er the current furore 
over Paul Hamlin wanting to give to the South Bank Centre is an interesting one 
because i truly believe that Paul Hamlin wanted to give that money on a 
philanthropic basis he actually wanted to give the money and it was all tied up 
as to whether or not the amount of money he was giving was worth it in 
comparison to the amount of money that London had put in to the South Bank 
Centre and when that argument came to light he withdrew and i think that it was 
possible that the South Bank Centre offered to put his name on it but that Paul 
Hamlin didn't actually see that as part of his decision for giving money 
because he was giving private money not company money
nm5189: well that i mean that sort of raises this question about the definition 
of what sponsorship is is quite you know i mean wha-, what's the difference 
between sponsorship and advertising and philanthropy and we perhaps need to 
establish that cause that that's quite important also in terms of if we're 
talkin-, if we're thinking ahead towards reform of taxation and having sponsors-
, you know having certain kinds of giving tax exempt those definitions are very 
important the i- the definition of sponsorship is that there is a benefit for 
the business that's very you know that's part of the agreed i think that's 
that's the agreed answer definition so you if it's philanthropy it's not 
sponsorship at the same time there is also a distinction between advertising 
and sponsorship and that i i guess you know that it's it's a bra-, it's a more 
blurred definition but advertising is something that is whether is a direct 
buying of of air time or of you know where you're actually getting a direct 
input from financial input to buy something sponsorship works slightly more 
subtly slightly more indirectly i mean the obvious example i suppose is if you 
look at television programmes that are sponsored in this country there's a 
difference between that and adverts you have a kind of you have a logo you have 
an association but you're not necessarily you're not actually you'll probably 
have an advertisement as well to actually push the product so the Midland Bank 
do not don't actually run a commercial at the beginning of the proms obviously 
but they do have an association so there is er i i the reason for this 
focussing on this question i guess is it leads on to this question about dirty 
money and about transparency because one of the arguments that that Mandy put 
forward was that that you have this transparent open contract you know where 
you are er with a sponsorship deal you know you can see what you can see what 
the sponsor wants you can see what the arts organisation wants it's above board 
it's clear philanthropy or indeed public giving public sector funding is 
perhaps much more difficult to work out whose getting what so you know 
philanthropic donation from Carnegie or you know towards the towards the 
library surface what was he doing with that money was he being a nice guy or 
was he trying to push forward a certain idea of of D-I-Y capitalism although 
you know globally by putting up building libraries in Scotland you know you've 
got the American steel magnate so there are are kind of and similarly with 
public money you this is one of the questions you'll obviously look at 
throughout the course why does the government fund culture what do they get out 
of it are they equal are they dirt-, are they dirtier than the sponsors that's 
you know one of the questions you have to ask yourselves
sf5194: i was just wondering could i have some more information about the 
compensations that er films expect actually because i was expecting mm a better 
image do they er make demands er of the arts organisation to change a consensus 
programme or to provide some i don't know some you know some offices or rooms 
in the museum or er dunno if can be er 
nm5189: it's probably difficult to generalise i don't know i mean you can i 
mean we gave you a sort of list a sort of list of headings of the kinds of 
things that people would get from sponsorship and it would depend on kind on 
the organisation on the kind of thing they're sponsoring you know the the 
things to do with profile things to er corporate entertainment i mean i you 
know i don't know whether you've got anything er 
nm5188: well er 
nm5189: to add to that
nm5188: a-, again businesses who are sponsoring are acutely aware of setting 
objectives and they will have a list of what they want and rarely do arts 
organisations have a list of what they will give and as a consequence the 
business organisation presents a list and it's generally accepted and agreed 
and then the arts organisation finds that at the end of the negotiation they 
actually haven't raised any points themselves and it's almost always the fait 
complet so though they've accepted the business list and there's nothing there 
for the arts organisations er that's two ends of the scale one of the most 
important parts of my job was to make sure that the business had the 
opportunity to ask as many questions as possible but that i knew the 
limitations of the arts organisation so i was empowered by the arts 
organisation in this instance the the university's Arts Centre what constituted 
no and there was a policy decision within the university that it was the art 
centre's decision whether it accepted tobacco sponsorship so the university has 
a no smoking policy the university will be no smoking so it had its decision 
but it recognised that it was for the art's centre to make a decision based 
upon sponsorship of cultural activity the Arts Centre management board decided 
that it did not want to see tobacco sponsorship so my brief was contained 
because the arts organisation had thought about what it wanted to achieve and 
Natasha's point was very important it comes down to whether sponsorship is by 
choice or by necessity the Arts Centre chose to undertake sponsorship it 
therefore undertook to set perimeters and say no where it felt it was outside 
of its objectives when a small organisation that has suffered from a lack of 
government funding or a lack of public funding and then needs to make that five 
percent to survive then the decisions become much more difficult and they may 
be inclined to give away more than the money is actually worth an arts 
organisation has a return on investment just the same as a business does it's 
just that a business is far better at asking for that return than the arts 
organisation is and it comes back to the point about the arts council the arts 
council gets a tremendous return on its investment in business terms it just 
doesn't tell anybody about it
nm5189: and one of the one of the changes that i i you know some of the arts 
have researched regional arts boards is that they've become far more aggressive 
in asking for credit for things that they fund so they're becoming far more 
like sponsors and actually wanting to have their logos a certain size on a 
poster and wanting to ensure that on the publicity material you quote you know 
this event is being supported by West Midland arts London arts board whoever 
and that that kind of corporate sector you know that say well we want to have 
our share of the of the publicity mm er 
sf5191: can i just go back to what Valerie said i mean it is quite common 
practice is it not for mm certainly for performing arts companies to produce a 
package er and it will list exactly what benefits sponsors will get i mean for 
five hundred pounds you might just get a credit in the programme for a thousand 
pounds you might get twenty tickets and a credit and it'll go on right up to 
production sponsorship where mm the company name will be on everything and 
there'll be you know more tickets there's there is normally a sliding scale i 
mean there is normally a document thats on the list of concerts that er 
nm5188: absolutely so if an organisation er yes if an organisation by choice 
has decided to enter into sponsorship they've generally got that sliding scale 
of what they are prepared to give and at some point in time and i accept that 
it happens that a company might say well we don't like that new contemporary 
play with foul language but if you did er an accepted Charles dickens 
adaptation that would be fine well you cannot blame them for asking the 
question if the arts organisation chooses to accept the money because they need 
the money i would say morally the decision is wrong but practically if it's one 
production out of five then it represents a small percentage of the artistic 
output
sf5192: sorry i just wanna go back to the issue of transparency and theres this 
idea that sponsorship is very transparent so you know exactly what the goals 
are what the objectives are er not necessarily on both parties but especially 
biased for the sponsor mm and it seems to me that just because it tra- er it's 
transparent ie the limitations are explicit doesn't kind of justify them really 
because sometimes if you do accept into a sponsorship you are incredibly 
limited you have to meet certain goals which as you said if it wasn't by choice 
you then are expected to meet and just because it's transparent and explicit it 
doesn't mean that that makes the the power of sponsorship a good thing 
inherently or er 
nm5189: er i mean i think yeah there that transparency is part i i will depend 
upon circumstances in which the the deal is made sorry of the benefit of it be 
er being transparent i mean as you say it's all very well knowing that you're 
having lots of conditions imposed upon you but they're still being imposed upon 
you the fact that it's transparent doesn't make it any better but i guess that 
you know that the question is to do with partly to do with do-, it's down to 
the individual organisation to stand up for themselves but it's also of course 
down to the contacts and towards what the la what the bigger picture is which 
is why this relationship between public and private money is important and 
whether the whether there and the relationship is dependent whether it-, 
whether it's a buyers' market or a sellers' market whether the arts 
organisation is able to go out and shop around and find the best deal or 
whether it's the other way round and the and the sponsor has got a chunk of 
money and they're looking at fifty arts organisations wondering who to give it 
to well you know if you look at maybe some of the big er some of the big 
successful organisations perhaps they can they're they're in a slightly 
stronger position to negotiate because i would of thought the Royal Opera House 
Proms would be quite an attractive sponsorship opportunity as they say so you 
know there's it's gonna be easier for them to perhaps say well i'm afraid you 
can't have this or you can't have that you know the logos gotta be smaller or 
or we're not gonna do it al those kind of conditions can come in if you kind of 
you know me and my mates community theatre co company trying to you know trying 
to get some money we've written five hundred begging letters we get one reply 
from one charitable trust or one sponsor who says yeah we'll give you some 
money but you gotta do this this and this we're highly it's unlikely we're 
gonna say mm we're gonna negotiate with you come to some you know make some 
hard decisions here and you're you know you're gonna have to do what we want 
you to do so that you know it's partly to do with sale of organisation maybe 
it's partly to do with with with the environment you know look at look at the 
the amount of corporate money in the US versus the amount of corporate money in 
the UK and one can you know make other national comparisons maybe and regional 
comparisons and maybe it's easier in in London than it is in in the north in 
the north east i don't know you or maybe easier in cities than it is in rural 
you know areas mm depending on what the sponsor wants what kind of markets 
they're going after
sf5191: mm talking about transparency i mean is there an issue here because i 
don't think the public know anything about the deals that are made between 
businesses and the arts unless it leaks out i mean whereas at least with public 
funding you've got a right to look up the figures you can you know anyone can 
get an annual report from the Arts Council
nm5189: mm
sf5191: mm whereas with businesses it seems to be always a lot more a lot more 
hush hush you don't know what pressures are being put on organisations how many 
tickets they'll give to sponsors
nm5189: i don't i mean i'm not su-, i mean i think technically you're right but 
on the other i think if you go to a a theatre you know ho-, how much do you 
know really about about that i mean obviously it's as cultural policy students 
you all know these things but if you went along to say the Arts Centre would 
you know how much money they get from the regional arts board and would you 
care more to the point and i think the problem is that that public money is 
kind of invisible and you don't really notice it whereas soon you know private 
money is er 
sf5192: just a question er is there a legal requirement to actually disclose 
sponsorship i mean the arts council has to produce an annual report and tell 
you where it's given it's it's money does sponsorship with the arts have to be 
associated with a name and a disclosed name or not
nm5188: er no there are there are nobodies even thought that far er it will 
appear as a line on part earned income in the majority of of accounts simply 
because to differentiate it from public funds but there are no legal disclosure 
obligations
sf5191: you do occasionally get events that er are sponsored by an anonymous 
donor as well don't you
nm5189: when the Royal Opera House was bailed out there was a big there was a 
you know an anonymous donor stepped in presumably because i i presumably 
because they don't want lots of other people to come after them for for some 
money as well i guess i don't know maybe it was individual
sf5195: can i just ask a question about the ethical issue you were saying that 
organisations don't want to be as seen er as promoting sort of like smoking but 
i still seem Timothy was saying the public doesn't really find out about 
business sponsorship and isn't really interested in where the money comes from 
so why just say i dunno a tobacco company offered you millions of pounds and 
you'd say no just because it's smoking and and you don't advocate smoking like 
why is that as issue
nm5188: well er if if you accepted the money but you didn't disclose by terms 
of including a logo on publicity or print then you you have a dilemma mm there 
would be no benefit to the to the tobacco company giving you money
sf5195: yeah but i'm not saying that you wouldn't put a logo but i just don't 
see why it is bad to have a logo in it's not saying that it isn't really 
promoting smoking is it it's just it's just saying that this is where we got it 
from
nm5188: well i personally was on the side of accepting money from whatever 
reasonable sources was available because my job was on the line i have no 
objection to tobacco sponsorship because i firmly believe that an audience in a 
classical music concert or a rock concert or a comedy event is more than 
capable of judging whether they wish to smoke or not i do not believe that 
advertising promotes smoking i believe it changes brand loyalty but it doesn't 
encourage smoking there are other issues involved so personally i accept and 
would have accepted tobacco sponsorship but it was a decision of the Arts 
Centre as a whole which was made up of commercial interest from my perspective 
and creative interest from the director's point of view and from the 
programming manager's so on on reasonable discussion it could be misinterpreted 
[laughter]
sf5192: i think it's going back to a lot of the issues of actually having a 
mission statement or a policy and then having to evaluate what you do from the 
activities that you then produce and mm funding sources i think you do have to 
go back to your policy and i can totally understand why the Arts Centre would 
not want to associate itself with something which actually contradicted a 
fundamental policy it has so i can i can totally understand why they would 
refuse to have tobacco sponsorship of their er 
nm5189: can i have a quick show of hands who would who would take who would 
take the money from er Benson and Hedges the Benson and Hedges er studio theatre
sm5190: well depending on what or- organisation er 
sf5192: well yeah i mean er 
nm5189: yeah yeah okay the Arts Centre let's be specific the Arts Centre should 
we er would if you were if you were Stella running the Arts Centre would you 
take smoking er 
sf5192: with a no smoking policy
nm5189: with a no smoking policy would you ta-, would you take money from 
tobacco
sf5191: well you'd have to weigh up the negative publicity i mean i used i 
worked briefly for opera north in their development department and British 
nuclear fuels are a corporate member of Opera North and they get a tiny one 
line entry among about fifty other members mm and i did ask them i said you 
know if they offered you more money would you take it and they said no probably 
not because we'd probably get people picketing performances and we'd get bad 
media coverage and in the er final analysis it wouldn't be worth it whereas we 
can have them as a corporate member because nobody really picks out their name 
so you know er 
sf5192: it just seems so sad that you have to actually start thinking of the 
financial reasons i mean that you are so dependent on sponsorship that you will 
actually change what your policy is what you your mission statement is just 
because you need the money i mean it's very sad to think you actually have to 
go so far as to totally re mm redefine what your organisation is just to get 
money it's er it's a bit like er 
sf5193: but you do that for public subsidy anyway
nm5189: i was gonna say yeah er 
sf5193: it's no different you do it for public subsidy er change your mission 
statement to fit the er 
sf5192: yeah i suppose that's true
nm5189: but isn't that isn't that one of the things that's happened over you 
know in in the public sector as the money sources have become more and more 
diverse arts organisations have chased after all kinds of pots of money in a 
desperate attempt to kind of compensate for the loss of core funding s they'll 
you know they'll they'll go after Home Office funding for drugs for example 
well that was i mean actually i think iv'e iv'e used this example before i know 
but it's a good example of public money being tainted you know the drum The 
Drum which was a er a black arts centre in Birmingham is a black arts centre in 
Birmingham when it was being set up took some money from the home office and 
the home office money was targeted towards re-educating people about drug use 
and you know the Home Office support you know linked in with the police and all 
the rest of it there are a lot of people in the black community in Birmingham 
who said this is we don't wanna have any part in it this is kind of this is 
stereotyping black people this is linking us to is linking us to this idea of 
us being criminals and that's the money that's coming into a black arts centre 
you know we don't want that so there's i think the the important issue as you 
say is what's your do you have a policy and are you gonna stick to it and 
that's gonna apply whether it's public money er 
sf5192: yeah
nm5189: or private money you've' gotta be clear and and i guess that's what 
Peter's saying as well you know that you've gotta you've gotta have your 
perspective as an organisation what you do what you don't do what's acceptable 
what isn't acceptable and stand by it and don't be er don't be bullied by the 
you know the experienced business negotiator on the other side of the table 
who's probably who may be more experienced than you that's why you have to call 
in somebody like Peter to come and help you
sf5192: i think it's fair enough to say that pubic money might be as dirty or 
or as tainting er as business sponsorship but it doesn't mean er just because 
something's just as bad doesn't mean that you er 
nm5189: no
sf5192: have to i mean er no
sm5190: well it's a political discussion whether we think it's it's more dirty 
or less dirty er say that arts should rather bank towards er democratic public 
bond er bolyer should embank towards commercial interests and and to 
concentration of of capital that's a political discussion and i think it's only 
er big organisations like Warwick Arts Centre who can afford to have a policy 
of choice so er 
nm5189: mm mm er mm
sf5191: it's a luxury
sm5190: it's a luxury
sf5191: yeah
nm5189: so is that i mean that goes on to er links into er this question about 
er the kind of organisations that benefit from sponsorship one you know one of 
the arguments about sponsorship is that it it reinforces hierarchies you know 
that it's all very well talking about sponsorship being this extra five percent 
but actually you know if you broke down how much of that money in the same way 
as public money of course goes to the big er the big organisations you know how 
easy is it for for cutting edge experimental work to get sponsorship how easy 
is it for small community based organisations now namex i don't think your 
organisations had any sponsorship er 
sf5193: no very little we get help in kind but we don't get money so people 
give us things and time and resources but not money
nm5189: mm
sf5193: so that's the way we get it
sf5191: i mean there's one or two er charitable trusts like Lloyds T-S-B 
foundation who actually specialize in er projects which are you know are more 
or less on the social exclusion side you know there are there are er yeah
sf5193: they are but they're oversubscribed though)
sf5191: well of course they are yeah but mm
nm5189: mm b-, i mean there is that devel-, that sort of graining about of you 
know that blurring of the line between sponsorship and and mm philanthropy when 
when the when the corpo-, the business actually sets up a foundation or a trust 
so you know the Sains-, Sainsburys have a separate trust which is a which is 
actually you know in the directory of grant making trusts you know it's a 
slight-, you know it's a different game when you're applying to a grant making 
trust so generally speaking you're you're smaller and your community based type 
organisations are going to be applying to trusts rather than to business 
sponsors because i if you're you're looking at it as a market you know 
competing for sponsorship money the smaller organisation has got less to offer 
basically and they don't have such big audiences they don't have such good 
entertainment facilities they don't they're not gonna have such an impact on 
the corporate image
sf5193: well our last project was with homeless people and they'd be all you 
know they have no money so why would a sponsor come along and say you know buy 
a Jaguar car i mean er 
sf5191: but i think there is a genuine element of philanthropy some of those er 
with Lloyds T-S-B Halifax community affairs i mean the people you deal with are 
interested in the projects mm you know there's a a definite sense that they do 
want to give something back i mean alright i-, it probably is slightly 
cynically targeted to the areas where most of their customers are but you know
nm5189: so in this relationship between public and private and and i guess 
trusts somewhere between the two is there a case for saying you know fo-, for 
thinking about areas of responsibility then saying certain kinds of 
organisation event should be left to fend for themselves and certain kinds of 
organisation event should receive a maximum share of public money and is that 
happening does it happen
sf5191: well isn't it a case partly of er a larger company needs er it needs 
more money than a smaller company so to be allowed that public funding and also 
go for the sponsorship isn't it relative to the er 
nm5189: right that's one thing yeah that's one argument yeah but the oth- i 
mean another argument could be that mm mm something that's been that Jerry 
Robinson's been pushing a great deal in you know er is this is this idea that 
there are no er you know funding isn't for life it's for Christmas you know 
funding is short term and you go you get your money for doing f-, for to set 
you up towards getting money towards earning money yourself and the 
organisations big organisations should actually be taking more from the private 
sector and the fact that er the Royal Opera House was able to bail itself out 
miraculously from a sudden donation from an anonymous donor when it was when it 
was backs to the wall and it was almost it was almost a game of poker going on 
between the department of culture media and sport and and the and the you know 
the hidden private donors who didn't want to see the Opera House go down so you 
know maybe there's a case for saying that er that that you know that the kind 
of public sector money should be concentrating on on Vanessa's er theatre
sf5191: yeah [laughter from group] i mean i think there's a need more er a law 
for more strategy for mm organisations to fill in the gaps that are left by 
others i mean for example i know this isn't a direct business sponsor but the 
foundation for sport and the arts seems to channel it's funding to fill the 
gaps in in public funding you know they for example they gave grants to dance 
and drama students who mm who fall out of the net because they're not eligible 
for local authority grants for those degree courses and the Foundation for 
Sport and the Arts actually funds some of those people so they've looked and 
they've seen that a gap where public funding doesn't fill and that to me is 
quite sensible what seems silly to me is when they're almost competing to 
support the same organisation so then the organisation can use that twice
nm5189: mm mm well that's i mean that's when it gets er you know that's what 
worries me in a sense when the public sector organisations become like sponsors 
and want to buy want to buy a piece of an organisation because it's successful 
so they want to be associated with a particular brand and are saying you know 
which is which for a commercial sponsor is you know fine i mean that's 
understandable that's what they that's what they want but for you know public 
sector in a sense should surely have other priorities and other goals and yet 
there's a sense in which you can see certain organisations being attracted 
certain art forms being attracted to public funders
sf5192: can i ask a general question to to you Peter er there was in the two 
presentations that we saw one of them said that business fundings great because 
it it's got something in common with the arts it loves innovation it loves 
experimentation and mm Natasha's one said that it plays safe and it never does 
anything innovative from your experience what is from which side does it tend 
to fall on
nm5188: er i'd sort of anticipated the question and unfortunately on confusion 
would say both er the luxury that Warwick Arts Centre had and i accept that it 
is a luxury and it will continue to be is because it is such a diverse 
organisation a bank a conventional bank Midland Bank H-S-B-C as they call 
themselves classical music that is the way they wish to direct their 
sponsorship yet a small local company of architects can actually go for a young 
person's education programme so er to save the support for the I-C-A was a 
brave decision but it actually recognised it's target market so it had done its 
homework
sf5192: so once again it's to do with profile
nm5188: it's to do with profile it's to do with the result
sf5192: yeah
nm5189: companies set their objective based upon the result arts organisations 
actually sometimes look no further than th-, the accounting equation and don't 
consider the implications for their organisation
sf5192: it's quite interesting because my my gut reaction was to say well 
there's this idea that maybe you can tax business and actually make business 
sponsorship something that is then fed back through the government and maybe it 
doesn't have the limitations and the objectives of the the specific businesses 
involved but then i suppose if you do that you lose the positive side of er 
just the image that is put forward with sponsorship and it seems to be so 
important and you lose that if you didn't actually have direct sponsorsi-, 
sponsorship because the business moulds it very much in that direction but it 
can also be very beneficial towards the arts so er 
nm5189: mm
sf5194: when when because i was wondering do people really pay attention you 
know to the logo do people really know that er Midland Banks er sponsors er the 
Warwick Arts
nm5188: well er i'm not sure Chris if you've got a copy of it Clerical Medical 
who are an insurance a medical insurance company did a very large survey which 
they sponsored they did the survey free of charge which evaluated audience 
perception and reaction to sponsorship and some very insignificant percentages 
of the audience actually knew that events were being sponsored so the it's the 
way you er er evaluate sponsorship Midland Bank taking one hundred people to a 
classical concert where the audience is a capacity of a thousand if you 
evaluate the thousand then you get a nominal percentage of people who recognise 
that the performance is being sponsored so on that basis it wouldn't be worth 
doing but if you evaluate the hundred guests of Midland Bank the evaluation 
would prove that a hundred percent of the people thought that the sponsorship 
was a wonderful thing
sf5194: but among people who knew it was Midlands was sponsoring this concert 
er would they go right up to Midland Banks because it sponsors you know 
classical music
nm5188: absolutely not
sf5194: so actually what's er what's really the point of the logo
nm5188: well the the decision that sponsors er can make is if they recognise 
that that their objective is the hundred people then the logo actually is just 
an added bonus but it's not really important so again it's the decision of why 
somebody is sponsoring
sf5191: can i just say mm iv'e noticed in Manchester there's a er new concert 
hall that's been open for about two or three years now called Bridgewater Hall 
and they've obviously noticed this thing they've i talked to someone at the 
development department an they said mm not many people actually notice the 
logos in the programmes or those sort of things they've actually got up a gobo 
you know like a projection of a slide on to the wall as you come in so for each 
concert they have a projection of you know this concert is being sponsored by 
Midland Bank it's very conspicuous and it's easy for them to change for each 
event so they've obviously put some time into thinking thinking about it 
they've they've found they've got much higher percentages now of audiences who 
realize that it's being sponsored
nm5188: sophisticated marketing identity
sf5191: yeah
nm5189: and there's al-, er also been a continuing controversy over crediting 
the sponsorship in reviews mm you know whether when you're reviewing a concert 
whether you should mention the sponsor and the the you know er i mean i guess 
when you were at Warwick Arts Centre you would have to have dealt with that but 
you you know you have to ri-, ring up the you know the newspaper and say look 
if you're gonna you know can you make sure that you mention x brand sponsor 
because if you don't it's gonna then they you know they're less likely to give 
us money next time round so and th-, and the newspaper was is again well it's 
all to do with power these decisions you know it doesn't it doesn't affect them 
they can afford to be purist about it and say well it really isn't part of you 
know we don't want to give free publicity in a newspaper and you know the way 
round that has been sometimes to that the newspaper would persuade the the 
sponsor to take out an advertisement as well along the side so that they the 
newspaper gets paid as well mm but that that those questions about credit and 
how much people how much notice people take of is is important
sf5191: i mean it's editorial policy isn't it because mm i know mm er when i 
was working in Manchester the Manchester evening news every review it says 
sponsored by the Greenhalls Group or whatever at the end so it's obviously an 
editorial policy cos i certainly never told them to put that
nm5188: yep right yeah
sf5191: but it was always in there and as a matter of fact they were sponsoring 
one performance out of five and i thought it was slightly unfair but er 
nm5188: right
sf5191: you know
nm5188: yes er er the Birmingham Post and Mail has a policy where it doesn't 
credit sponsors
sf5191: ever er yeah yeah
nm5188: er and there is no doubt in the the greater sophistication of sponsors 
asking for the return of sponsors asking for the return on their investment 
they will list all of the things that they know they're going to get and it 
would be wrong from a business perspective if next year they didn't ask for 
more that that is part of an incremental relationship and er two points er one 
i wasn't allowed to speak to the press on behalf of sponsors and that was a 
decision taken by the Arts Centre because it wished to take a cultural decision 
and a business decision so that actually prevent-, put me put a gap between me 
and the publicity which i thought was negative but i accepted and understood 
why so i actually countered that by going to a local company getting them to 
increase the value of their sponsorship where i could justify changing the name 
of the event to the dot dot dot series where i thought there would be no 
alternative other than for the press to critically review the dot dot dot 
series and the Birmingham Post and Mail actually changed the name of the event 
rather than include the name of the sponsors now i still got my money but they 
didn't do it again so i tried and so the sophisticated marketing of the company 
said yes that extra effort on behalf of the arts organisation is worth extra 
money but it didn't work so it didn't re-occur it's a transaction it's it's er 
arts organisations have to try and be as sophisticated as they possibly can in 
the business perspective as do the businesses mm businesses have got the fast 
track approach though
sf5192: which different kinds of sponsorship are there i mean there's it seems 
to be like there's a whole different range you actually get things like 
business arts where you have mm businesses involved with sponsorship of the 
arts who then also commission paintings for their walls and things like that mm 
do you get the opposite end of the scale which is almost totally financial 
where you get sponsorship and says well actually we want a direct percentage of 
money or is that not possible does that ever happen
nm5188: how do you mean a direct percentage
sf5192: i mean maybe the money that they that the organisation er a bit like a 
shareholder i spose but do you get a sponsorship that takes the form of getting 
a percentage back on what they put on the revenue say of the organisation
nm5188: absolutely not i don't know of any arts organisation that actually 
links er the sponsors return to the earning capacity of the arts organisation 
and i would say that would be morally corrupt i mean that you know absolutely
sf5192: well i was just wondering if they existed you know i was just er 
sf5191: does the lottery film funding work a little bit like that some of it
nm5188: mm er 
sf5191: i mean thought it's not er 
nm5188: i don't think so er the i-, i-, it's not unreasonable for a company to 
say if we give you x that means that you're likely to increase your return on 
the investment so therefore can we have a percentage which is effectively what 
the lottery funding of film is doing that if this film becomes successful we 
get something back now i think that's a fair commercial equation
sf5191: will get a percentage of the profit er it's just it's not a commercial 
source of money but but the process is commercial
nm5188: but er mm er 
nm5189: the film is comer er is considered commercial
sf5191: yeah
nm5188: is funding a commercial ar-, art film
nm5189: but i mean the in terms of in terms of getting returns you know you can 
you can look at you know when you look at er some of the one of the articles 
actually i've put in the box downstairs is about is an article about 
sponsorship and one of the articles talks about Becks sponsorship you know how 
they they targeted a kind of er sponsorship at young youthful trendy sort of 
comedy type events you know kind of going for a particular niche in the market 
in order to promote Becks beer and it was enormously successful in terms of 
raising their market share if if you need the article it gives you statistics 
on numbers of barrels which mm which is quite mm convincing you know in terms 
of the the commercial return but in other cases you know as Valerie was 
suggesting you know it's sometimes difficult to think well what are they 
getting and that's i think i think there is er it's it's obviously it's on the 
way and i think in terms you know looking at trends i think that the days of 
the you know of the the mm the chief executive who's got a pet project which he 
sort of you know in the slush fund that he gives money to are on the wain but 
at the same time there are certain kinds of sponsorship particularly 
particularly kind of the grand institutions like the you know like something 
like the Royal Opera House maybe er we keep going on about the Opera House er 
other Sadler's Wells or mm you know maybe some er the C-, er C-B-S-O where 
there's a kind of people want to be associated with it and they're not really 
that sure they're not so sure about what they're getting out of it and it's 
less it's less tightly targeted arrangement you know the benefits are less 
clearly quantified i want to just sort of mo-, er cos i think just to move on 
to some other que-, other issues er and one of the things that's been talked 
about is this question about mm plural funding and and accountability and 
Natasha talked about the problem of quality you know where you have you have 
people making er i mean Mandy put it forward as a positive and Natasha put it 
forward as the negative mm that you have people making decisions about the arts 
when the arts isn't really their business and effectively they through the 
through the the power of saying yes or no to a deal they have a a power over 
what kind of works get money what kind of projects get money mm and whether 
that is a bad thing whether that is a dang-, er well first of all do you accept 
the argument that they do that they have a right of veto because the 
alternative argument which i'm sure Peter would put forward is that if they 
don't get the money from one source they can get it from somewhere else but do 
you think that there's a danger of corporate decision making setting it's own 
agenda about quality deciding what gets funding not being accountable nobody 
knows why how they make the decisions you know Charles Saatchi changes a 
painters fortunes overnight just by buying all his pictures you know what 
what's going on there is that is that dangerous is that something you think 
you're worried by or not a problem
sf5192: was it the the I-C-A that were sponsored by er 
nm5189: Toshiba yes
sf5192: Toshiba would would that not affect i mean would they not there be 
having an affect on what kind of arts mm er 
nm5189: well he they have very prominent placings all their their installations 
that involve multi-media have Toshiba set-, t-v sets there are things like that 
you know er i mean i don't know whether it meant that they increased the number 
of of of er you know television installation projects that they has in the g-, 
er in the gallery space or you know in the in the performance arts space i 
don't know but there's certainly you know there i think that there was a 
presence definitely
sf5191: mm i mean there's an element possibly i mean and it was mentioned in 
this article as well mm that often your talking to businesses and they don't 
know that much about the art form and they're quite likely to just let you get 
on with it
nm5189: mm
sf5191: you know they see you as experts in that field they hand it over at 
that stage the artistic quality is not their concern as long as they have an 
enjoyable evening i mean i think that i think that is very prevalent i mean you 
certainly get sponsorship deals when they've been allocated prime seats in a 
theatre or concert hall and they don't turn up i mean you know that does happen 
doesn't it
nm5188: mm i it it happens it happens more rarely than than the publicity i i 
bad news is is good news mm i would suggest that if a situation arose where 
fifty seats were put aside for the sponsors and only twenty-five turned up mm 
that's mis-management and that's mismanagement both from the businesses' side 
and from the arts organisation's point of view so i don't i the situation is 
unforgivable mm i never had that situation because i always made sure that i 
professionally approached th- the whole event didn't just take the money er and 
put it into the pot er to determine that the guest list was the guest list as 
at the last moment so that even if a member of the public was given a ticket so 
that there weren't empty seats that was presenting the right approach that's 
professionalism that's nothing to do with whether sponsorships' good or bad
sf5191: but i mean to be i mean i have seen numerous cases of org-, 
organisations and sponsors not attending performances at the last minute or not 
bringing the numbers they said they would you can see at any big theatre you go 
to they'll be empty seats in the corporate rows but mm which to me suggests an 
element of the company not really being that involved in attending the event
nm5188: possibly so but again i would put say that is a fault of management not 
not of the arts mm er 
sf5191: oh yes i wouldn't i that's what i'm saying i don't think you can put 
that on the arts organisations they've done their best
nm5189: but that's i mean taking that anoth-, another another approach to that 
question does it does it is it is it a good or a bad thing i mean lets lets say 
we accept the argument business business that sponsor the arts are not entirely 
concerned about content and they don't know that much about the content of the 
arts i'm i'm er 
sf5192: so on the whole is that is that true i mean would you would you assume 
that business sponsorship then lets people go i mean it's it's going back to 
the question of choice or necessity because even if you've got the argument 
that well if you don't want to be associated with Toshiba the don't accept 
their money well if it's a question of necessity then it it gets more difficult 
so do you find that the business sponsorship is actually does it does it 
impinge upon what art is produced or or does it not
nm5188: er i think it would be wrong to suggest that the I-C-A didn't think 
about the implications but i would er i hand on heart i would honestly believe 
that they did not change their artistic policy they found a synergy with a 
young aggressive company into multi-media and if you historically looked at 
what the I-C-A create as exhibitions you would probably find that a high 
percentage of it is and was multi er media so they've found a synergy between 
between the two directions that their organisations take mm there is no doubt 
that i have experienced events where people have gone for the safe product 
classical music in in my particular instance bu-, they've chosen the wrong 
concert and the customers who are being entertained actually haven't enjoyed 
themselves now that that's a very difficult situation to find yourself in again 
it comes down to the Arts Centre having the choice back to Natasha's argument 
choice and necessity and i had a range of products and there would always be 
some more popular product in my er set of sales potentials and therefore i 
could generally satisfy the market requirement
sf5191: so were you ever in a situation of you know trying to nudge your 
business towards something that you suspected they'd enjoy more
nm5188: yes
sf5191: yeah saying well you know have you thought about this package
nm5188: absolutely but within fairly tight perimeters because a lot of a lot of 
companies will say well actually we want a concert now if somebody comes to you 
with a proposal if you've interested an organisation in coming to speak to you 
and they say well i think we'll go for a concert to then actually convince them 
to go for theatre is a very negative sales tactic you would probably lose the 
deal completely so at that point you'd say okay they-, they've set some 
perimeters now lets define it and we could actually go for contemporary music 
in a couple of weeks time the London Mozart Players er are are playing Nym- er 
a a Michael Nyman evening now that's contemporary music and i would be actually 
very conscious about explaining what that music is likely to be where i'm 
presenting it to a sponsor but if you actually went to the sponsor and say 
Michael Nyman contemporary music but do you remember the film the piano and 
then give them something to link into it is likely that they might be convinced 
to try something just a little bit different but it's still classical music
nm5189: is there a learning curve that er 
nm5188: absolutely absolutely
sf5192: so does that mean that sponsorship tends to be based in larger 
organisations and maybe even larger arts centres which have the choice between 
different kinds of media i mean with the Arts Centre at Warwick you presumably 
if a sponsor approached you and said i want a concert you could say okay we'll 
work with that and if we make money from the sponsorship from the concert then 
we'll be able to feed more money into pour theatre whereas if you're a small 
organisation that's only organising maybe one play and you get a sponsorship 
saying i want a concert will you can't say well we'll give you a concert 
because you don't have that that possibility
nm5188: absolutely the the the er the Arts Centre was and is in a tremendously 
fortunate situation mm you've raised an interesting point which actually hasn't 
come up in in any of the presentations and i it's it's an area that most people 
are not prepared to admit to is that sponsorship certainly from my point of 
view never actually pays for a large or total proportion of an event i-, it's a 
contribution to general income of an organisation so that contribution of 
income may be directed at a classical concert but the benefits of having that 
additional income the expenditure may be on young people's work who would not 
attract sponsorship but could not take place were it not for the additional 
income that an organisation can generate from sponsorship
sf5191: so it's kind of crossed subsidy
nm5188: absolutely
nm5189: yeah
sf5191: so you're bringing the money in and then er yeah
nm5188: i er i don't honestly believe that i know any arts organisation that 
directly relates sponsorship for an event to the expenditure for that event if 
they did they wouldn't do it because it wouldn't be worth it but in the total 
income mix of an organisation they con-, i i i sponsorship makes a contribution 
to the expenditure opp- opportunities of an organisation but if if if one 
actually sort of tried to mm equate the Midland Bank sponsorship of the Proms 
so the Proms that they sponsor then no business man would accept that deal that 
isn't the basis of the deal the basis of the deal is by association it's the 
subliminal er connection to the quality of out cultural industry that is being 
er gained by sponsorship
nm5189: which does suggest that in terms of what Helene's was asking that 
there's a kind ofer if you've got a diversity of activities you've got a sort 
of sh-, things in your shop window that you can show to the sponsor and say 
well how about how about this how about that and if you're a if you've got if 
you go in there with just one objective one thing to sell you're you're 
incredibly limited as to what you can actually er )
sf5192: so it seems that sponsorship er 
nm5188: but that that is why Tescos are now selling cars and mobile phones and 
jeans mm a corner shop however however much you may dispute the the moral 
argument for out of town shopping centres and corner shops personally i would 
prefer a corner shop but i regret i shop at an out of town supermarket now i 
think if you entered a discussion with a business sponsor they would probably 
have empathy for a small struggling local organisation but then they'd look at 
their global market and they'd have to actually re-, er represent that global 
market in how they spend money
sf5192: so that basically means er basically means that sponsorship is actually 
er small organisations can be closed off from it and local and maybe community 
er projects are closed off from it so it's
nm5188: they are more er likely to be from the bigger players in the 
sponsorship market
sf5192: yeah
nm5188: but Chris has made out er the point that there is now an increasing 
number of medium sized businesses or large businesses who are actually 
concentrating on brand promotion who are targeting the the more innovative 
young people's contemporary work because instead of actually because instead of 
actually saying right we're not promoting er J Sainsbury?s the supermarket what 
is the target market everybody to to actually sort of going down well we-, 
we're doing a promotion on brussel sprouts so who buys brussel sprouts you know 
where they put it in the shop determines how many they they sell so instead of 
a company a drinks company sponsoring under their own brand name they will 
sponsor under u-, under the brand name of the actual product so Becks will 
sponsor Becks beer instead of the holding company which is Unhover er Bolsh
nm5189: Bolsh er it's Bolsh and Newcastle isn't it
nm5188: yeah yeah so you rarely these days see a large company sponsorship 
there are actually brand sponsorships which is an increasing trend
nm5189: i mean it's an argument it's not not really about cultural diversity 
but about diversification within your organisation that as as you're moving 
towards an increasingly pluralistic funding environment from both from the 
private sector and from the public sector one of the ways that you survive in 
that environment is by diversifying your activities so that you've got 
different things to offer to different funders and yet at the same time 
retaining some kind of core identity of what you want to do like i mean a a 
very good example is Jubilee Arts who who are based based in Birmingham mm com-,
stro-, very strong community based you know emphasis on cultural democracy 
been very successful in raising public money from al kinds of sources and 
private money you know Sony and all kinds of people put put have put money into 
into their organisation quite unexpectedly and one of the ways that they've 
been able to do that is they've got a whole range of things that they can 
actually put forward to different funders and say well what about this what 
about that then as Peter says there's a kind of there's that going on on the 
surface then the money comes into the organisation is then re-channelled into 
different directions and all cross-subsiding with different projects which 
allows them to maintain that diversity even though probably a lot of the 
sponsors you know wouldn't necessarily want the money that they put in to be 
used in the ways they are used mm
sf5191: mm i know that er you know companies look at sponsorships in global 
terms and i i know that's that's correct mm i i do think there's er an 
important influence of location with regional identity i mean for example i 
used to live in Cheshire where there's big pharmaceutical companies like Dencor 
and it seemed to me in terms of Decor's local sponsorship it didn't matter what 
you did as long as it was in Maconsfield
nm5189: mm
sf5191: you know because they were trying to spread their company image they 
want to sponsor things that their employees would go to
nm5189: and Kodak do that as well i mean you can't get money from Kodak unless 
you're' doing er 
sf5191: yeah and Birmingham er of course Cadburys in Birmingham you know there 
there is an element of kind of local this is our local patch you know we'll 
support the organisations in that area
nm5188: absolutely a a and i i it depends on the point of view that you take 
Rugby Cement Eugby group based in Rugby they sponsored er a Rugby school to 
choose works of arts for a visual exhibition in the mead gallery and the mead 
gallery thought that it was absolutely wonderful because they had a lot of 
money to play with which they wouldn't normally have had the event took place 
the event was highly successful everybody enjoyed themselves and then it was 
evaluated afterwards and somebody actually asked me what was the real reason 
why Rugby Cement why Rugby Group were actually involved just because of the 
Rugby connection just because it was the local vicinity and plain and simply as 
far as i was concerned the reason that i approached Rugby group was because 
they had a planning application in for a new cement works in Rugby which was 
causing a tremendous degree of bad public relations and one of the decisions 
that Rugby Group decided to sponsor Warwick Arts Centre in this event was 
because they were getting good local public relations it was a business 
transaction and i was totally and absolutely aware of that when i went into it 
and one of the benefits of a large organisation being able to employ somebody 
to concentrate from a business perspective to concentrate on the sponsorship 
market is the fact that they are divorced from the creative process if you can 
actually create that gap between the two processes it is much easier for an 
organisation to take sponsorship on board and it comes back down to the point 
that Natasha made is it by choice or is it by necessity if it's by choice then 
it's a business transaction if it's by necessity it's survival and in survival 
we all take decisions which are not necessarily the right decisions
sf5191: do you think there's an element as well er of the companies with the 
very dull product i mean for example i'm thinking of Buxton festival supported 
by mm cement companies road stone companies i mean there's an element of 
companies you know needing to inject some sort of glamour into their image i 
mean you can't really glamorise cement can you so i suppose if you if you take 
on some arts sponsorship er can you glamorise cement
nm5189: well i dunno you could you could associate with mafia murders maybe
sf5194: well i have er i have a good example er i used to work in a highway 
construction firm this summer and so er it isn't really famous in the western 
part of France because you know they construct the highways and stuff there are 
a lot of societies er against these highways and actually it was supporting a 
lot of arts events in the western part of France and i think it was in a way 
you know to give this glamour image to the firm in a way and it worked
nm5188: er big company next to us on campus National Grid Company they own the 
electricity transmission pylons which some people would say desecrate mm well 
desecrate internationally the environment they basically don't have a product 
to sell it's an invisible product what they do have is public relations they 
need to sell good public relations and consequently National Grid are not 
seeking mm National Grid are seeking profile they're seeking by association 
that the company contributes to society and so therefore they give to nature 
reserves which they may have destroyed by putting up a pylon but never the less 
it's good news they support the arts because it's part of society it's cultural 
industry they have nothing to sell and none of the audience that attends an 
event sponsored by National Grid are gonna by anything there is no product that 
a member of the public can buy so again they set their sights on good public 
relations
sf5192: were you talking about mm the different companies actually almost 
feeding off the profile of the arts in society mm did you actually approach 
companies thinking well actually we as an arts organisation can maybe not 
change our profile but use their profile for us as well is er or do you not 
actually use the identity of the sponsor as something very important just the 
money
nm5188: ah ha er i think it's more commercially biased towards the business 
benefiting from the arts organisation that it is from the arts organisation 
benefiting from the bu-, business mm i don't actually think there is any arts 
organisation that i can think of that would honestly admit that they were er 
trying to associate themselves with either the professionalism or the business 
acumen o-, of a business that was sponsoring them i i don't think it's not an 
achievable objective
sf5192: even not to maybe increase their their mm a appeal to a wider market 
maybe a business market
nm5188: oh in the selling process mm to achieve sponsorship by a major 
international bank makes it much easier to go to another large international 
company and say the validity of our organisation is x because these people 
support us therefore it will be safe for you to support us obviously by 
association but that is purely a sales a sales tactic i'd be honest enough to 
to admit that whereas a large international company er is seeking the 
intangible of a cul-, of the cultural industry and indeed part of the sales 
tactic is that a a company is sponsoring is buying something which they can't 
actually buy in the open marketplace if they set out to buy the good feeling of 
a thousand people leaving a concert hall having had an absolutely storming 
evening you can't buy that so therefore all you can do is generate the 
atmosphere surrounding it
sm5196: that's what a tobacco company are looking for i think they don't don't 
actually want to sell the product they want respectability i think they er 
nm5188: i think that's absolutely the case and i think that is the reason why 
the majority of arts organisations do actually have a problem in accepting 
tobacco sponsorship it is because they are fully aware
sm5196: they want to change their image i mean er 
nm5188: yes that is actually nothing to do with the cultural industry that 
they're supporting it i-, it is the market that they are addressing and that is 
why i don't think that with mm corporate sponsorship being lost from motor 
racing i don't actually think that that will become a potential for the arts or 
for heritage er or for any other organisations i i think that motor racing and 
tobacco sponsorship go hand in hand and it's been such a close relationship for 
so long and nobody is naive as to what the relationship consists of and i don't 
think that money can be spent elsewhere they will they will try and spend it 
but i don't think that it will be accepted
sf5194: er particularly how does it work er an arts organisation er will be 
approaching firms potential er potential support mm is it the contrary er are 
some firms and enterprise coming to to see an arts organisation to ask er er we 
would like to sponsor you mm what can you propose and er 
nm5188: er er i i would i i don't think there are any figures for it certainly 
i know of none i have never been approached out of the blue by a sponsor out of 
the blue saying we would like to be part of your organisation but that might be 
to do with the fact that i was aware of the potential of our organisation and 
therefore was already in touch with the potential market place