nm0007: let me make a couple of announcements thank you [0.5] has everybody all 
second years got a seminar [0.3] pack [0.6] yeah [0.6] let me make a couple of 
announcements [0.5] first of all [0.2] we need to have a representative [0.4] 
from this group for the staff-student committee [1.5] which is going to meet at 
the end of the term you're probably used to this by now each [0.6] er course 
has a representative [0.4] to feed back views about the course [0.4] or any 
other er things you want to tell us about [0.5] to the committee [0.9] so i 
will ask you next lecture whether there's a volunteer or [0.2] you want to 
whether you want to coordinate or volunteer [0.2] so bear that in mind it will 
meet in the second to last term for an hour [0.5] and it's a chance to give the 
views of students [0.4] to the department [1.5] one other [0.4] announcement [0.
3] er [0.5] an article [0.3] we [0.2] we talked [0.6] couple of weeks ago about 
[0.2] the influence of Plato [0.4] on Plutarch [0.5] and we talked about [0.4] 
er a little bit about his [0.8] theo-, Plato's theory [0.3] of great natures [0.
4] that is that [0.7] who well who can remember [0.4] what [0.4] Plato said 
about great natures [0.5] in The 
Republic [1.6] 
sf0008: they will either lead to a lead to a really good [0.2] person or a 
really bad person [0.4] 
nm0007: fantastic yes [0.3] that [0.3] people with what Plato calls great 
natures that is [0.4] great potential [0.9] er [0.2] in their in their nature 
[0.6] and remember we said that [1.3] character [0.3] is your nature [0.3] and 
[1.0] and then [0.2] added to it the action of your environment or education on 
it [0.4] and Plato said people with great natures will either turn out [0.3] 
very good [0.6] or [0.3] very bad [0.4] depending on [0.2] the environment [0.
4] that is brought to bear on them and in particular [0.3] dependent on their 
[0.3] education [1.4] this theory [0.3] is particularly important for [0.2] 
some of Plutarch's Lives the negative [0.4] lives [0.4] he introduces the 
theory [0.2] at the start of the Lives of [0.4] which two people [1.3] where 
does Plutarch talk about great natures [2.0] 
sf0008: Antony [0.8] 
nm0007: yes [0.4] er [0.3] Mark Antony [0.4] and hi [0.6] er there's handouts 
there [0.3] Mark Antony and the Greek paired with Mark Antony is [0.3] 
Demetrius [0.2] not one that you're likely to meet [0.9] and [0.6] we're also 
going to meet in a couple of weeks another of Plutarch's great [0.3] natures [0.
3] and that is Alcibiades who's paired with the Roman Coriolanus [1.6] 
now [0.3] i've written an article [0.5] on all of this which has just appeared 
and which i'm going to put in the seminar library and it's also [0.4] in the 
library now [0.3] it's called [0.3] Plutarch Plato and Great Natures [0.6] and 
if you type into the computer my name [0.5] you'll find it it'll be in the 
seminar [0.2] library yes 
sf0009: when is your book available in the library [0.4] 
nm0007: i don't know er i've ordered it [0.2] and they don't seem to have it er 
sf0010: it says in bindings on the [0.3] in binding 
nm0007: really 
sf0010: yeah [0.5] 
nm0007: well if you go in and er keep asking them for it maybe they'll do it 
quickly but [0.5] it takes them a long time unfortunately [0.7] 
sf0011: is the box [0.3] is there a box-file in there [0.6] er 
nm0007: there sh-, yeah there's a box-file in the seminar room [0.8] 
sf0012: 
nm0007: has anybody [0.4] ha-, have you f-, has somebody found it 
sf0013: yeah 
sf0014: i don't know 
nm0007: so far 
sf0014: 
nm0007: okay but it is y-, [0.2] it is there is it [0.3] okay it is in there if 
you ask the secretary [0.5] er he will point it out to you [1.5] are there any 
questions before we [1.0] go into this lecture [3.4] okay [0.9] er well last [0.
5] time [0.3] we [1.4] did a brief run-through of 
what most people say what the general [0.4] approach is [0.3] to the life of 
Pericles the Athenian [0.3] statesman [0.3] Pericles and he's going to be the 
subject [0.3] of our thoughts for the next two lectures this lecture and next 
lecture [0.4] and the seminar [0.8] and we did [0.2] a [0.4] a brief [0.2] 
uncontroversial run-through [0.3] of what you'll find written about Pericles [0.
4] in history books [0.8] and in this lecture [0.2] we're going to take that 
picture apart [0.2] a bit and this lecture is entitled [0.4] how important [0.
4] actually [0.3] was Pericles [0.4] and [0.2] you'll gather from the very fact 
we're having a lecture on this that [0.3] we're going to be arguing that the 
importance of Pericles [0.4] who's [0.3] presented as [0.2] the figure [0.2] of 
fifth century Athenian democracy [0.5] in all the books you read [0.3] we're 
going to be arguing that Pericles was actually not [0.4] so [0.4] important [0.
6] and that the importance of Pericles [0.3] has been exaggerated [0.3] by one 
person [0.4] the historian [0.2] Thucydides [1.0] and that this exaggeration [0.
3] has got into the [0.4] er literary and historical tradition ever since until 
our lecture now [0.3] 
where we're going to challenge it [0.7] so [1.6] how important was Pericles [0.
9] Pericles tends to be seen [0.3] as [0.3] the representative figure the 
embodiment [0.4] of [0.3] Athenian [0.3] democracy [2.8] you can find [0.7] 
studies of Pericles [0.4] er in the history books we talked about last time 
that are on the handout [2.8] this [0.9] er [1.3] exaggeration this this sense 
of Pericles as the [0.3] most important figure [0.3] starts off in the 
historian Thucydides [0.5] who of course is contemporary [0.4] with Pericles [1.
2] can anyone [0.7] tell us or guess [0.3] what sort of a a family [0.2] or 
what sort of political background [0.3] Thucydides came from [0.6] 
sf0015: aristocrat [0.4] 
nm0007: aristocrat [0.2] right [0.2] all [0.3] ancient writers pretty much are 
going to be aristocratic [0.4] to have the time [0.3] and the leisure to write 
you are by definition [0.3] rich [0.2] which [0.4] in classical Athens means [0.
5] an aristocrat you own lots of land [0.6] and what happened to Thucydides 
what big event [0.5] allowed him to write the History 
sf0016: was he exiled [0.2] 
nm0007: he was exiled he was exiled by [0.3] the Athenian democracy [0.5] does 
anyone know why he was exiled [1.1] 
sf0017: he was on some sort of campaign and he failed
nm0007: yeah [0.5] that 
exactly [0.3] he was on campaign [0.4] and failed he failed [0.3] to save the 
city of Amphipolis [0.3] from the Spartans [0.3] in four-two-five [0.4] B-C and 
it was taken by Sparta [1.4] and he actually writes about [0.7] about this in 
his History [0.4] and just sort of [0.7] when he's narrating the fall of 
Amphipolis he says that [0.3] an an Athenian squadron from the island of Thasos 
[0.5] al-, [0.5] commanded by Thucydides it doesn't say commanded by me 
commanded by Thucydides [0.5] er [0.3] just failed to relieve the city [0.7] 
and it gives the impression a poor guy [0.4] er you know he did his best and er 
i-, i-, it didn't [0.4] didn't quite get there in time of course we don't know 
whether that's quite true [0.4] er he was exiled by the government in other 
words the people [0.4] in Athens [0.2] so [0.8] these two facts the fact that 
he's an aristocrat and the fact that he's [0.8] he suffered at the hands of the 
democracy [0.4] would [0.6] er [0.3] lead us to expect [0.3] that he would be 
somebody who had a rather negative might have a rather negative view [0.4] of 
[0.2] democratic power [0.4] in Athens [0.4] 
and might be rather [0.2] well [0.2] disposed towards [0.4] aristocratic 
leaders [0.5] er rather than [0.4] er the rabble as he would see it of Athenian 
politics [0.4] and [0.2] that's [0.2] one [0.3] possibility of why Pericles 
gets [0.2] such a good write-up [0.4] from [0.3] Thucydides they share the same 
political aristocratic [0.4] background [3.2] what actually though does [0.4] 
Thucydides say about Pericles [0.4] what events does Thucydides say Pericles 
was involved in [0.5] well if you go through [0.5] if you read [0.2] 
Thucydides' History you get an impression [0.4] of the overwhelming greatness 
and importance [0.5] of Pericles the authority of Pericles [1.2] where does 
that sense of Pericles' importance come from [0.8] his speeches [0.3] he gets a 
lot of speeches in the first two books of Thucydides [0.6] a lot of times when 
the narrative stops [0.4] Pericles comes on the stage [0.3] and Thucydides 
gives us [0.2] as it were a verbatim report [0.4] of what Pericles said [0.6] 
to the Athenian democracy [0.8] probably not actually his original words 
probably [0.5] a er er [0.5] a write-up by Thucydides a fictionalized account 
[0.4] but [0.3] this gives us the 
impression of of that Pericles was the most important statesman we get words [0.
5] put into his mouth [0.3] nobody else [0.2] gets [0.5] so many speeches [0.5] 
so it gives the impression of this important person [1.3] we also get 
occasional [0.5] paragraphs of direct praise we're going to be looking at one 
of these [0.4] er later on where [0.6] per-, where Thucydides says [0.3] 
Pericles was the best [0.2] leader of the time [0.3] and after his death [0.2] 
Athens went downhill [4.2] if we actually look however at events Thucydides 
says Pericles was involved in [0.9] er there are very few [0.2] and we'll come 
to that [0.2] in a moment [0.5] there are actually very few events Thucydides 
[0.4] himself can pin [0.3] on Pericles for all the praise [0.4] for all the 
speeches he gets [0.4] there aren't that many things Pericles [0.4] is actually 
said to have done [2.6] Thucydides [2.0] sets the agenda [0.3] then [0.3] for 
how [0.8] Pericles and fifth century Athens [0.3] would be seen [0.3] in later 
generations [2.7] including in [0.2] in the history books that you'll look at 
so the fifth century for Thucydides [0.3] is [0.5] the Persian Wars [0.8] four-
ninety four-eighty [0.7] then [0.3] 
the fifty year period [0.3] between the Persian Wars and the Peloponnesian War 
we've talked about [0.5] Pentekontaetia [1.1] then the Peloponnesian War [0.6] 
so [0.3] there's [1.4] er [0.2] Thucydides' view of the fifth century [0.6] 
we've had cause already to question [0.4] that how have we questioned [1.0] 
that how have we said that view of the fifth century is [0.6] really 
Thucydides' construction what [2.4] what 
sf0018: everybody else [0.2] thought of it as [0.3] three separate words 
nm0007: yeah that's er this [0.7] exactly [0.3] so [0.5] what you'll read in 
lots of history books is [0.2] exactly what [0.3] Thucydides said [0.3] that 
you get [0.5] er [1.8] Persian War [0.3] then this fifty year period of Athens 
growing power [0.4] and then [0.3] the Peloponnesian War and it's basically the 
end of the fifth century four-o-four [2.8] 
er [0.8] we've said well actually the Peloponnesian War you could [0.7] this is 
an artificial construct of Thucydides' [0.3] to say the Peloponnesian War is 
four-three-one to four-o-four [0.4] the they're fighting the Spartans and their 
allies as far back as four-six-one [0.8] this is there are lots of other ways 
of presenting Athenian history [0.3] similarly [0.2] well Persian Wars [0.4] er 
[0.2] peace isn't made with Persia until four-four-six [0.9] a peace treaty is 
signed with [0.5] er a-, between Athens and Persia [0.3] so [0.3] already we're 
seeing that Thucydides constructs history [0.7] in his way it's not wrong but 
it's [0.4] just one way of [0.4] setting out the events [0.4] so [0.2] another 
part of Thucydides' construction [0.4] of the fifth century [0.3] is [0.3] 
Pericles [1.2] as the leader of good [0.5] moderate [0.2] democracy [0.2] when 
Pericles is in power [0.4] democracy is basically good [0.5] because there's an 
aristocrat in power at the head of it [0.4] and after Pericles' death [0.4] it 
goes 
downhill [1.0] so this is how Thucydides presents it [0.6] good democracy [0.4] 
Pericles and before Pericles [0.4] radical [0.3] democracy in other words over 
the top [0.2] democracy [0.5] after Pericles' death [2.3] why [0.8] is he [0.2] 
so fond of Pericles why does he give this such a positive [0.4] picture [0.3] 
of Pericles [0.4] as we've [0.3] we talked about at the start [0.3] both 
Pericles and Thucydides are aristocrats [0.4] Thucydides opposed to the 
developed democracy [1.0] er we know of [1.8] i-, it seems from reading 
Thucydides' treatment of the oligarchic coups [0.4] in the Peloponnesian War [0.
3] that he approved of [0.2] these right wing regimes he gives them quite good 
[0.4] write-ups these times when democracy's overthrown [0.4] briefly [0.5] so 
[1.3] therefore he's [0.7] er emotionally inclined [0.5] to [0.5] be in favour 
of [0.4] an aristocratic leader [0.5] in the democracy and before the democracy 
became more [0.2] democratic before it really took off [0.4] towards the end of 
the fifth century [3.4] this [0.2] picture [0.2] has been influential [0.3] 
then [0.3] for later [0.4] classicists this picture [0.4] from Thucydides [1.2] 
has been influential in later classicists in 
particular [0.5] the [0.7] classicists of the ancient world like Plutarch [0.2] 
in other words people living centuries later [0.4] looking back and admiring [0.
3] the classical world and thinking that everything from the classical [0.5] 
world in other words [0.3] the days of Athenian greatness and democracy [0.6] 
was best [0.8] ad-, admiring that world [0.5] Plutarch [1.9] having read 
Thucydides [0.3] places Pericles at the high point of Athenian democracy [0.4] 
and writes as we'll see next week [0.3] a very very positive [0.4] account [0.
3] of Pericles [1.2] there's long sections in Plutarch's Life of [0.4] 
admiration for what he calls [0.6] er Pericles' [0.5] aristocratic [0.2] 
government [0.8] now you can immediately see [0.3] that [0.3] is a 
contradiction in terms historically speaking why [0.4] why i-, is that a 
contradiction in terms [0.5] aristocratic government [0.4] of Athenian [0.5] 
democracy [0.5] 
sf0019: because it was a democracy [0.7] 
nm0007: it was a democracy [0.2] that's right it was a democracy [0.5] er so to 
talk of it as an aristocratic [0.4] government [0.5] is both [0.3] incorrect 
historically speaking but also reveals [0.6] what's going on in the minds of 
someone like 
Plutarch that [0.6] democracy is bad [0.7] democracy where the rabble have 
power is bad [0.4] so [0.5] er but Thucydides admires Pericles therefore [0.4] 
it must have been something different it must have been although it was [0.5] 
in name a democracy [0.5] it was really [0.5] led by aristocrats [3.0] Plutarch 
[0.4] like Thucydides puts the opponent [0.3] of Pericles Cleon [0.4] as [0.2] 
a demagogue [0.8] as something totally different from what Pericles [0.4] is 
what Pericles was doing [0.3] Pericles the aristocratic leader [1.4] Cleon [0.
3] his opponent [0.4] a [0.2] demagogue in other words a rabble- [0.4] rouser 
[3.8] Plutarch [0.7] whose [0.3] takes on Thucydides' picture of admiration [0.
4] of [0.5] er Pericles [0.4] places Pericles at the centre of an intellectual 
movement [0.7] er [0.3] of his time and associates him [0.4] with [0.3] people 
like [0.3] Anaxagoras [0.4] an early philosopher [0.2] pre-Socratic philosopher 
[0.4] Pheidias [0.5] who's responsible for [0.4] the statue of Athena in the 
Parthenon [1.7] er [1.1] and [0.2] other various intellectual figures [1.8] 
contemporary sources don't in fact link Pericles with [0.6] er hardly any of 
these figures [0.7] er [0.3] why [0.2] however from our knowledge of Plutarch 
would you 
er expect him to l-, to link [0.4] someone he wants to praise [0.4] with [0.4] 
intellectual figures [2.0] why does this make sense to us why don't why don't 
we need [0.4] to look for sources for this we can just actually say [0.3] well 
this is what we'd expect Plutarch to say [0.9] 
sf0020: trying to make him good by association [0.4] 
nm0007: he's trying to make him good [0.3] by association quite right [0.2] and 
what's he associating him with [0.7] what's [0.9] what's the key point here 
about all these figures or wh-, what's Plutarch [0.4] particularly interested 
in [0.2] if he wants to [0.6] praise somebody [3.6] 
sf0021: virtue [0.3] 
nm0007: virtue yes and on what is virtue dependent [0.5] 
sf0022: education 
ss: 
nm0007: education exactly very good [0.3] so [0.2] we expect [0.2] someone [0.
2] good [0.2] for Plutarch to be associated with intellectual figures to have 
had a good i-, [0.3] education to be interested in artistic [0.5] pursuits [1.
0] and that's what we get [0.3] there's not so much evidence [1.1] so 
Plutarch's presentation of Pericles which we'll look at in much more detail 
next time [0.7] influenced modelled on [0.2] Thucydides [2.7] that [0.3] 
presentation then 
comes into [0.3] the modern world [0.4] er [0.3] when [0.2] in the nineteenth 
century [0.3] historians started looking [0.2] er [0.3] in earnest at Ancient 
Greece [0.4] people like [0.3] er George Grote who wrote one of the early [0.8] 
histories of Greece [0.4] er were impressed [0.2] by Pericles in the same way 
[0.5] and [0.4] er [0.5] one can see why [0.3] the presentation of Pericles by 
Thucydides appealed [0.4] to these liberals of the nineteenth century [0.3] 
because [0.4] he wasn't [0.5] a a monarch [0.6] he wasn't er somebody a a kind 
of ruler [0.4] that nineteenth century liberals would be opposed to he wasn't a 
monarch an emperor [0.5] he was [0.8] er in a a a state with a broader 
political base [0.4] but [0.3] he opposed [0.4] according to Thucydides [0.4] 
er [1.2] the m-, the masses the rabble he wasn't a demagogue [0.5] he was an en-
, an enlightened leader [0.3] controlling the masses in their own for their own 
good [1.0] so [0.7] Pericles gets a very good press [0.3] from [1.2] er [0.9] 
intellectuals [0.5] powerful [0.2] people of the nineteenth century who ha-, 
who saw themselves as a bit like [0.4] Thucydides' Pericles someone who could 
[0.6] who was [0.3] working in a kind of democracy [0.3] but [0.5] keeping the 
people [0.3] in their place [0.2] a democracy where the people respected their 
leaders [0.4] and stayed in their place [3.8] we've looked [0.3] then [0.3] at 
[0.4] Thucydides' picture of Pericles [0.8] and we've looked at the influence 
of that picture [1.1] we've looked at the influence on [0.2] Plutarch and later 
[0.6] ancient writers and the influence on the modern [0.5] on modernish [0.3] 
er writers and through into [0.5] the twentieth and twenty-first century [3.9] 
we now go on to ask the question well what evidence is there [0.4] actually [0.
3] for [0.4] Pericles [0.3] what [0.2] what evidence is there [0.3] for [0.2] 
him being considered important [0.4] in his own day [4.4] well [0.7] if we look 
at Thucydides what Thucydides actually associates Pericles with what actions [0.
4] Thucydides says Pericles [0.4] did [0.8] we see that there's very little 
concrete [1.0] er that [0.2] Pericles is associated with [0.7] lots of speeches 
in Pericles' mouth lots of praise of [0.3] what a great leader Pericles was [0.
4] but very little [0.5] to actually put down to his agency [0.4] so i've put 
down on the handout [0.4] the list of what [0.4] his great [0.8] admirer [0.3] 
Thucydides actually says 
about Pericles [0.3] well [0.3] he mentions him as commanding a fleet briefly 
[0.4] on campaign in the four-fifties [0.3] okay he was a he was a general one 
of ten generals [0.5] in the four-fifties [1.2] he mentions him [0.3] as on 
campaign suppressing revolts [0.4] in [0.4] islands revolting from the Athenian 
empire [0.4] in [0.2] the four-forties Euboia [0.4] and Samos so again [0.3] a 
general [0.2] of which there were ten [0.2] at any one time [3.0] he [2.1] has 
him [0.4] er involved in [0.3] the [0.2] negotiations and the decision about 
whether to go to war with Sparta [0.3] in four-three-one [1.0] and that seems 
to be [0.2] there were mentions in comic poets of this as well of [0.6] the 
fact that [0.3] Pericles [0.3] perhaps encouraged Athens to go to war for 
private reasons this kind of thing [0.3] so [0.3] that seems to be something 
Pericles is ac-, [0.2] actually associated with [0.5] and we get him dying of 
plague [0.2] in four-two-nine [0.7] so this is what [0.7] er [0.7] the concrete 
[0.3] events [0.5] Thucydides actually [0.3] er gives to Pericles [1.5] we only 
[0.9] get the impr-, we only get [0.4] er evidence there for him ac-, actually 
at the centre of power [0.6] making speeches in the Assembly [0.3] having any 
part in [0.3] decisions as opposed to being a general for a few years before [0.
6] and at the start of the Peloponnesian War [1.7] 
what about in the next century what about as people [0.4] as [0.3] orators [0.
3] looked back on the fifth century [0.7] in the fourth from the fourth century 
[1.0] what did they say about Pericles [0.3] well the really s-, this is the 
the really surprising [0.2] fact [0.3] but if you go through all the hundreds 
of speeches [0.4] made by Athenian orators [0.3] in the fourth century [0.7] in 
a lot of which they look back to the fifth century and say to their audience [0.
5] we should stand up to Macedonia [0.3] now [0.3] because we're the people who 
stood up to the Persians we're the people who stood up to the Spartans [0.3] 
and you've got to show yourselves worthy of your great ancestors [0.6] when [0.
4] fourth century [0.3] speakers [0.2] make this kind of appeal to the past [0.
4] to the [0.2] to the glories of the past [0.5] er [0.3] Pericles is hardly 
ever [0.5] mentioned [1.0] lots of other leaders of the fifth century 
Themistocles Cimon [0.4] Aristides [0.4] other people [0.3] er [0.3] that you 
could think 
of are mentioned lots [0.3] we must [0.3] do what Themistocles did against the 
Persians we must stand up for our rights [0.4] Pericles almost [0.2] never [1.
0] so from the point of view of fourth century democratic thinkers Pericles is 
not [0.4] at all [0.5] important [2.0] can anyone think of a a sociological 
reason [0.6] in other words a reason in terms of [0.6] who [0.7] was going to 
be the audience for these speeches [0.6] of why Pericles might be not so 
important there [0.4] in speeches 
sf0023: could be the fourth century leaders were less a-, aristocratic than [0.
8] 
nm0007: yes it's that er [0.3] fourth s-, fourth century leaders of the 
democracy in general are less aristocratic [0.2] that's quite right [0.7] er [0.
4] also who are you speaking to if you make a speech in the Assembly [2.2] who 
make up the majority [1.7] it's not aristocrats is it 
sf0024: no 
nm0007: it must be [2.5] did i hear [0.4] 
sm0025: [0.7] 
nm0007: er you're thinking of the Roman Assemblies [0.3] er [0.4] Athenian [0.
3] democratic Assemblies [0.4] er who goes to the Assembly in ancient Athens [0.
7] 
sf0026: citizens [0.2] 
nm0007: everybody [0.4] everybody [0.8] er so the majority are the poor [1.0] 
so [0.3] if you're making y-, [0.2] a-, an audience for a speech [0.7] is 
likely to represent much more a cross section of the Athenian population [0.4] 
than the readership of [0.3] a history [0.4] like Thucydides' [0.5] so [1.2] 
when you get speeches [0.8] er [0.6] for [0.2] delivery before a democratic 
audience made up of a cross section of the people Pericles is hardly mentioned 
[0.5] so [0.3] this reinforces our our [0.3] view that A he wasn't so important 
as Thucydides makes out [0.3] and B [0.3] Thucydides is writing for an 
aristocratic [0.4] audience from an aristocratic standpoint [2.5] even [2.2] 
centuries later [0.2] even about the time Plutarch was writing [0.4] it's quite 
possible [0.3] to go through the great men of the Athenian past [0.4] and not 
mention Pericles [0.3] so [0.6] Pausanias [0.4] from the second century A-D [0.
3] who knows [0.2] what Pausanias did or who Pausanias was [0.5] 
sm0025: [1.4] wrote a book about different places in Greece 
nm0007: yes [0.3] wrote a book about places in Greece [0.2] a kind of guidebook 
[0.3] to [0.2] the art of Greece [0.7] in the second century A-D so designed 
for [0.4] er an audience [0.4] er [0.3] of [0.5] er aristocratic Greeks or 
Roman travellers coming to Greece [0.3] and it mentions the statues you can see 
the temples 
this kind of thing as you go region by region around Greece [0.6] and [0.3] er 
[1.3] there's one particular passage [0.3] where [0.2] he [0.3] goes through 
the great men of the Greek past [1.1] er who've done great deeds in Greek 
history [0.3] and [0.2] he mentions lots of people [0.4] Miltiades [0.2] who 
fought at the battle of Marathon [0.4] Themistocles [0.2] who also fought 
against the Persians [0.4] Cimon [1.2] who fought against the Persians [0.4] er 
[0.2] but not [0.4] Pericles [1.5] so [2.2] we're getting [0.5] here then a 
corrective [0.2] to our picture [0.4] that we get from Thucydides of Pericles 
[0.4] as of greatest [0.4] importance [2.5] we're going to spend the next [0.2] 
few minutes looking at some passages from these sources just to get a feel for 
what we're actually talking about [0.6] so [0.3] we're [0.2] going to start by 
looking at [0.3] some passages from Thucydides where we see [0.3] this praise 
of Pericles which is so influential later [0.7] and we'll also have a a quick 
look at [0.4] what Aristotle said about Pericles under the influence of 
Thucydides [1.6] so if we turn to [0.4] er our [2.7] handout [1.0] now i 
noticed that for some reason the [0.4] er when this was 
photocopied [0.4] one page was copied twice [0.4] so the second page of your 
handout [0.6] er the one [0.9] er [1.3] not the not the first one which says [0.
3] personalities one-eleven [0.4] but [0.7] the next one [0.5] which has in the 
middle Aristotle Constitution of Athens [0.4] twenty-seven to twenty-eight [0.
3] that's repeated [0.9] er [0.3] a little bit further on [0.2] so [0.2] that 
one you want to [0.2] draw a line through [0.4] because it upsets the order of 
the passages [0.5] is everybody with us [0.3] the se-, so the second pages of 
sources 
sf0026: that [0.5] 
nm0007: the whole thing the whole side 
sf0027: like that 
nm0007: so [0.3] both columns 
sm0028: so back page just not needed then [0.2] 
nm0007: er [0.3] the back page is needed [0.4] it's the second page 
sf0029: no 
sm0030: there's nothing on the back 
sf0029: it's just the yeah it's the same 
sf0031: yeah it's the same [0.4] 
nm0007: it's the same it's come out twice 
sf0032: 
sm0033: 
nm0007: so [0.8] no no not the back page [0.3] keep the back 
sf0034: that [0.7] just that page and then that page and then that page [1.1] 
nm0007: yes 
sf0034: that one then that one then that one 
sf0035: it goes 
nm0007: exactly 
sf0036: 
nm0007: there's four pages [0.5] and we're missing out the second 
sf0037: i've only got 
nm0007: which is the same as the last but it's important to miss out the 
second not the last because it's the order [0.6] is correct [0.4] so [0.2] 
cross it out now and then we won't be confused it took me a while [0.3] of 
confusion to work out [0.4] what had happened [1.1] so [0.2] what we have [0.5] 
then [0.4] is [0.7] printed out here is a speech [1.0] put into Pericles' words 
into Pericles' mouth [0.4] by Thucydides [0.4] from his History [0.4] and it's 
[0.7] the last speech that Pericles gets in Thucydides' History [0.7] and it's 
[0.2] advice about how they should fight the war [2.1] can anyone tell us what 
[0.5] Pericles' advice [0.4] was about the war [1.6] how they should fight the 
Peloponnesian War [1.2] 
sm0038: stay inside the city [1.0] 
nm0007: to stay inside the city yes [0.4] and 
sm0039: not to [0.3] come out 
nm0007: not [0.3] that's right not 
sf0040: use the fleet [0.3] 
nm0007: and use the fleet that's right those are the two elements so [0.4] 
don't go out and fight them on land [0.4] er we've got our fleet we can supply 
ourselves by sea [0.3] and use the fleet [0.5] to er attack them on their 
coasts [0.2] and to keep the empire [0.6] so [0.3] this speech [0.3] l-, lays 
out all [0.2] all of this in great detail [0.4] so [0.2] here's an example of 
[0.4] er the impression Thucydides 
gives us of [0.3] Pericles' great importance [0.4] and wisdom [1.2] er [0.2] 
giving this [0.3] these er this advice for the war [0.4] as we've noted there's 
nothing actually [0.3] concrete here of [0.4] of [0.2] things Pericles did this 
is [1.4] words [0.6] er [3.0] at the end of that speech [0.3] so we're missing 
out [0.3] the page where [0.3] i told you to miss out [0.4] we come [0.3] to [0.
3] Thucydides' [0.5] final judgement on Pericles [1.2] and this is [0.2] one of 
the most important passages of Thucydides' whole History and one that [0.3] you 
should root in your mind [0.4] as being important [0.5] for Thucydides' view of 
the Peloponnesian War [0.5] and for Pericles and for Alcibiades [0.5] and [0.2] 
this is the [0.2] last [0.6] er paragraph [1.6] er on here so left hand column 
[0.8] the last paragraph [0.5] in this way Pericles attempted to stop the 
Athenians [1.6] and this is [0.3] paragraph two- [0.3] sixty-five book two 
paragraph sixty-five [0.6] of Thucydides and let's read what Thucydides said [0.
4] and we're looking for this [0.5] admiration and praise [0.4] of Thucydides 
[0.8] er [0.2] some of the er the words are a bit faint on the left hand side 
unfortunately [0.3] in this way [0.3] 
Pericles attempted to stop the Athenians from being angry with him [0.3] and to 
guide their thoughts in a direction away from their immediate sufferings [0.3] 
the war has just started in fact and they're they're suffering [0.6] cooped up 
in the city [0.6] so [0.2] so far as public policy was concerned they accepted 
his arguments [0.3] sending no more assembl-, assembassie-, ass-, [0.5] 
embassies to Sparta [0.4] and showing an increased energy [0.2] in carrying on 
the war [1.2] as private individuals [0.3] they still felt the weight of their 
misfortunes [0.5] the mass of the people had had little enough to start with [0.
4] and had now been deprived of even that [0.5] the richer classes [0.2] had 
lost their fine estates [0.3] with their rich and well equipped houses in the 
country [0.8] and [0.2] which was the worst thing of all [0.3] they were at war 
instead of living in peace [0.4] in fact the general ill feeling against 
Pericles persisted [0.3] and was not satisfied until they'd contem-, condemned 
him [0.4] to pay a fine [0.5] not long afterwards however [0.2] as is the way 
with crowds [0.3] they re-elected 
him to the generalship [0.3] and put [0.4] all their affairs [0.3] into h-, 
into his hands [0.5] so there we have a little [0.5] chink [0.3] in what [0.9] 
Thucydides says about Pericles that he admits [0.5] at this particular point [0.
3] he gets deposed from office by the Assembly [0.3] fined [0.5] and put back 
into power [1.0] er [0.2] what [0.3] does that suggest about [0.3] who ran 
Athens [1.6] we g-, have a picture from Thucydides of [0.4] Pericles as the 
leader [0.7] 
sf0041: not Pericles 
nm0007: not Pericles right the people they don't like something he's done [0.4] 
depose him from office by a vote in the Assembly [0.3] fine him [0.4] put him 
back in power again [0.5] and say carry on [0.3] but watch it we're in control 
[0.4] so [2.2] we have a a er a a [0.5] chink [0.3] in [0.2] this [0.2] this 
wall [0.2] of of silence about Pericles this [0.4] this [0.8] assertion [0.3] 
not really with evidence but this assertion from Thucydides that Pericles is so 
great here we have [0.4] he's admitting that well it's not [0.5] always quite 
so much [1.0] by that time people felt their own [0.9] sufferings rather lass 
less acutely [0.3] and so far as the general needs of the state were concerned 
[0.4] 
they regarded Pericles as the best man they had [0.6] indeed [0.3] during the 
whole period of peacetime [0.3] when Pericles was at the head of affairs [0.3] 
the state was wisely led and firmly [0.5] er 
sf0042: guided 
nm0007: governed [0.5] what [0.4] 
sf0042: guided 
nm0007: guided could be guided yes er [0.7] er and it was under him [0.2] that 
assen-, Athens was at her greatest says Thucydides [0.3] when the war broke out 
[0.3] here too [0.2] he appears to have accurately estimated [0.3] what the 
power of Athens was [0.8] he survived the outbreak of war by two years and six 
months [0.3] and after his death [0.5] his foresight with regard to the war 
became even more evident [0.5] Pericles had said that Athens would be 
victorious if she bided her time [0.3] and took care of her navy [0.4] if she 
avoided trying to add to her empire during the course of the war [0.4] and if 
she did did nothing [0.4] to [0.3] endanger the safety of the city [0.2] itself 
[0.4] but his successors did the exact opposite [0.3] and in other matters 
which privately had no connec-, which apparently had no connection [0.4] with 
the war [0.3] private ambition [0.3] and private profit [0.4] led 
to policies that were bad [0.3] both for the Athenians themselves [0.3] and for 
their state [0.4] such policies when successful only brought credit [0.3] and 
advantage [0.3] to individuals [0.3] and when they failed [0.4] the whole war 
potential of the state [0.4] was in-, was impaired [0.9] great [0.2] praise 
there for Pericles' war [0.5] policy [0.8] er [2.0] what did we say last time 
about this policy about [0.3] how [0.5] good a policy it actually was [2.9] 
sf0043: it wasn't that good 'cause they all got the plague [0.7] 
nm0007: it wasn't that yes it wasn't that good they all got the plague er for 
one thing cooped up in the city quite right [0.6] er [0.6] what about the [0.3] 
yes 
sf0044: well he allowed [0.2] like the Spartans to get help from the Persians 
[1.2] which did drag the war on 
nm0007: yes [0.3] that's right [0.4] his policy was we wait and see we stay in 
the city we use our fleet to supply ourselves we make little [0.3] raids 
against Sparta but we don't go out and fight them [0.4] well [0.9] that policy 
meant the war lasted for thirty years [0.6] and in the end Athens [0.3] lost in 
the kind of war of attrition [0.4] against Sparta [0.3] and [0.4] er they [0.2] 
they [0.2] the [0.2] main [0.2] one of the the decisive reasons for this was 
the entry of Persia [0.4] into the war [0.4] on the Spartan side 
or at least [0.5] er [0.3] aiding the Spartans financially [0.5] so [0.3] this 
policy [0.6] er [0.8] er [0.5] couldn't have worked certainly if you took [0.3] 
the possibility of [0.2] Persia [0.4] wanting to see the end of the Athenian 
empire which it surely did [0.4] if you take that into account it wasn't a very 
sensible policy [0.4] and a much more sensible one [0.3] might have been the 
policy [0.3] of other [0.3] leaders like Alcibiades [0.3] which [0.3] aimed to 
strike [0.2] Sparta decisively [0.9] and to [0.3] do things like the invasion 
of Sicily [0.6] er 
which failed [0.3] unfortunately [0.4] but [0.9] some historians now argue that 
er this [0.2] er m-, [0.2] actually would have had more chance of success than 
Pericles just do nothing [0.4] and wait till we get worn down [0.4] so [1.2] we 
take this praise of Pericles with a pinch of of [0.2] salt [0.2] it's not self-
evident [1.0] er [0.4] the reason [0.2] for [0.4] er [1.5] the er [0.6] the 
greatness of Pericles the reason for his [0.4] er [0.7] er wisdom [0.3] for the 
success of his war policy according to Thucydides [0.4] was that [0.2] Pericles 
because of his position [0.3] his intelligence and his known integrity [0.4] 
could hold could respect the liberty of the people [0.4] and at the same time 
[0.3] hold them in check [0.4] so here we've got this idea of the aristocratic 
leader [0.3] who can [0.2] hold the democracy [0.9] in check who [0.4] is [0.3] 
respects their liberty he's not a tyrant but he [0.5] he kind of controls them 
[0.6] well we've just seen him being demoted and fined from office so this is 
not [0.9] quite so simple as it sounds [0.4] it was he who led them [0.3] 
rather than they who led him [0.5] and since he 
never sought power [0.3] from any wrong motive says Thucydides [0.5] er [0.5] 
there's no way of knowing that [0.5] er [0.6] he was under no necessity [0.3] 
of flattering them [0.4] in fact [0.3] he was so highly respected [0.3] that he 
was able to speak angrily to them [0.2] and contradict them [0.5] so Pericles 
as someone who [0.4] led the people and didn't flatter them [0.5] well [1.9] 
what [0.2] was it that Plato said about Pericles [0.3] we looked talked about 
this last week [1.0] to do with [0.4] flattering the people [2.2] what [0.2] 
what [0.5] er 
sf0045: he called him a demagogue the others 
nm0007: he called him a demagogue like all the others like other [0.3] leaders 
of the democracy [0.3] and [0.7] peric-, and [0.2] Plato associated Pericles 
with one particular [0.7] er event one particular [0.5] er deed political deed 
[0.5] 
sm0046: jury pay 
nm0007: jury pay introducing pay [0.4] for the juries [0.3] which [0.4] er [0.
2] Plato [0.6] saw [0.2] as flattery of the people in other words [0.3] that [0.
3] you're giving the people cash [1.0] for something which [0.3] rich peop-, 
sitting on juries which should in the view of aristocrats like [0.5] er Plato 
[0.3] be done for free by rich people [0.3] and [0.3] Pericles [0.3] gives 
money and [0.5] Plato saw 
this as flattering the people to win power to win votes [0.5] so [0.3] here we 
say have Thucydides denying he flattered the people and we can see therefore 
that it's not [0.2] quite so simple [0.6] so again we have [0.6] Thucydides' 
praise of Pericles not [0.6] er [0.8] as straightforward or as objective as we 
might think [1.7] certainly when he saw they were going too far in a mood of 
over-con [0.4] confidence [0.3] he would bring [0.2] bring to them a sense of 
their dangers and when they were discouraged for no good reason [0.3] he would 
restore their confidence [0.2] so [0.4] in what was nominally a democracy [0.4] 
power was really in the hands of the first [0.3] citizen [1.1] really [0.6] a 
wish [1.1] of Thucydides of how it should [0.4] be [0.5] how a state should be 
[0.4] you should have power [0.4] in the hands of the first citizen [0.8] er 
not necessarily how it actually [0.4] was [0.6] but his successors [0.3] were 
more on a level with each other [0.4] and each one of them [0.3] aimed at 
occupying the first place [0.4] adopting methods of demagogy [0.2] well we saw 
Plato [0.4] thought Pericles was a demagogue [0.4] which resulted in their 
losing 
control [0.3] over the actual [0.3] conduct of affairs [0.4] such a policy [0.
3] in a great city with an empire to govern [0.3] naturally led to a number of 
mistakes [0.3] amongst which was the Sicilian expedition now we think 
Thucydides is going to say [0.9] they shouldn't have sent out a fleet [0.2] 
they should have abided by Pericles' policy not [0.4] er try to expand the 
empire they should have just stayed [0.6] and er bided their time [0.4] but he 
doesn't actually say that [0.3] though in this case the mistake was not so much 
an error of judgement [0.4] with regard to the opposition [0.4] to be expected 
[0.3] as a failure on the part of those who were at home [0.4] to give proper 
support to their forces overseas [2.0] people think this bit [0.6] er must have 
been added [0.5] after [0.5] er [0.2] the Peloponnesian War [0.3] towards the 
end of the Peloponnesian War [0.4] when Thucydides changes his view [0.4] about 
the way the war was going and actually [0.2] he seems to suggest there that [0.
4] decisive action [0.4] overseas [0.7] might have been the best idea [0.7] 
once Thucydides himself writing his History [0.5] 
has actually seen Persia come into the war [0.6] he's changing his his view 
there so this sentence if not more of [0.3] it is thought by scholars to be an 
insertion [0.4] by Thucydides that ah well [0.3] maybe [0.2] the Sicilian 
expedition wasn't such a bad thing after all maybe the idea [0.4] was quite 
good [0.2] maybe Alcabiades who led the expedition could have defeated [0.6] 
the Spartans [0.2] and the mistake was that it wasn't supported properly [0.4] 
from home and they recalled Alcabiades and [0.5] the the expedition went to pot 
[0.7] er so [0.7] just you could just mark that as a later insertion [0.2] by 
Thucydides probably [0.5] from the context [1.9] because they were so busy with 
their own personal intrigues [0.2] picking up the passage again [0.4] for 
securing the leadership of the people [0.3] they that is post-Pericles leaders 
[0.3] allowed this expedition to lose its impetus [0.4] and by quarrelling 
amongst themselves began to bring confusion [0.3] into the policy of the state 
[0.4] and yet after losing most of their fleet [0.3] and all of the other 
forces in Sicily [0.3] 
with revolutions already breaking out in Athens [0.3] they nonetheless held out 
for eight years against their original enemies [0.4] which were now reinforced 
by the Sicilians [0.3] against their own allies most of which had revolted [0.
3] and against Cyrus [0.2] son of the King of Persia [0.3] who later joined the 
other side [0.3] and provided the Peloponnesians with money [0.3] for their 
fleet [0.8] and in the end it was only because they'd destroyed themselves by 
their own internal strife [0.4] that finally they were forced to surrender [0.
3] so [0.4] overwhelmingly great were the resources which Pericles had in mind 
at the time [0.3] when he prophesied an easy victory [0.3] for Athens over the 
Peloponnesians alone [0.5] so [0.2] we can see there Thucydides changing his 
ground a bit [0.3] that it's not that [0.5] Pericles' policy was correct [0.7] 
er [0.7] Thucydides has seen the failure of Pericles' policy the Persians enter 
the war [0.5] it's that [0.3] well [0.9] he left [0.2] Athens very strong [0.6] 
and the fact they survived for so long proves it but not that his war policy 
was great so [1.1] the 
second half of that passage at least is a retrospect [0.5] by [0.3] Thucydides 
taking into account later [0.4] events [0.2] in the war [2.4] Thucydides two-
sixty-five is the [1.0] passage for [0.3] the later history of the image of 
Pericles [0.6] so very important to fix that one [0.4] in your mind and p-, and 
we'll see next lecture Plutarch exploiting [0.5] this passage [1.5] if we 
return [0.3] briefly to [0.4] the actual [0.6] handout of the lecture [0.4] 
just run through briefly [3.7] one or two other things about the importance of 
Pericles we've looked at [0.8] what Thucydides says about him [0.3] the [0.2] 
praise of Pericles [0.6] and yet the lack of hard evidence of Pericles being 
important [0.7] we've looked at [0.2] one example of this praise [0.7] er [1.7] 
Aristotle [1.3] very much carries on [0.2] this idea of Thucydides plainly 
relies on [0.3] Thucydides has read [0.4] Thucydides [0.5] he associates him 
with two measures the citizenship law the introduction of jury pay [1.5] these 
two wo-, the one of which we mentioned just before [2.6] and [0.9] sees sees 
this as part of Pericles' rivalry [0.5] with [0.4] er [0.5] his [0.2] with [0.
2] other aristocratic [0.3] leaders [0.8] 
so [0.5] Aristotle presents these measures by Pericles like the introduction of 
jury pay [0.4] as a means of winning popular support [0.4] as a a [0.3] means 
of of [0.2] bribing the people you give them [0.4] money for the jury [0.4] you 
restrict citizenship so the citizens get the benefits [0.4] of the the money 
pouring into Athens so for Aristotle though influenced by Thucydides [0.4] 
there's there is this sense of Pericles as [1.1] a demagogue as not so 
different from [0.5] later [0.3] leaders [0.3] you don't have this sense of 
everybody was worse [0.4] than Pericles it went downhill after Pericles [0.6] 
with Aristotle Pericles is the start of it going downhill [0.6] with these 
measures to bribe the people as [0.4] as [0.5] Aristotle would see it [4.8] 
i've put just there finally you can read it that [0.3] there's basically no 
other [0.2] legislation [0.4] associated with Pericles [0.4] there's even an 
attempt [0.3] by [0.5] 
er one historian [0.3] Mattingly [0.5] er to [0.2] redate a lot of the [0.4] er 
[0.4] measures concerning the Athenian empire [0.2] preserved on i-, the 
evidence for these is inscriptions [0.5] from the four-forties when Pericles 
could have had something to do with them [0.5] to the four-twenties [0.7] and 
this is a very technical argument about the letter styles of inscriptions [0.6] 
er [0.3] but [0.2] you could just file that away in your mind that somebody 
reckons that [0.5] even [0.2] some of the events of the four-forties to do with 
the Athenian empire [0.3] which could [0.4] have [0.3] possibly been associated 
with Pericles there's no evidence for it [0.3] might not even have happened 
till after his death anyway [2.3] so we leave it there we've talked about th-, 
[0.3] Thucydides [0.4] and [0.4] his influence on later tradition next time we 
look at [0.7] Plutarch's biography [0.4] of Pericles [1.5] as [0.5] always 
there are [0.2] back handouts [0.2] for previous lectures here [0.4] if you 
missed any