nm0005: on a double-sided sheet [0.5] and once again i haven't put a summary on 
this one but what i have put er [0.8] er as with the pictures before [0.4] is 
extracts [0.2] er [0.7] in this case ancient documents which i'll explain 
briefly towards the end [1.6] we've got a little bit of time i think to look at 
those but you can er read them in your own time as well [0.8] the other sheet 
[0.2] i will also talk about at the end it's it gives you information what's 
required for the seminars [0.3] which are planned for next Tuesday [1.1] now [0.
2] er there is nothing on Monday [0.3] because it's the bank holiday [0.3] but 
the seminar should go ahead as normal on Tuesday [0.8] er i've got er a sort of 
[0.2] a grid with times for you to sign up in the different groups [0.4] all 
being well you'll be able to stay in the same groups you were er in before with 
namex [0.6] but [0.2] er if there's a problem if there's a timetable clash you 
can move to er another group [0.7] er and if there are any problems with that 
you can consult me [0.2] think it's best if i just put that up on the notice 
board afterwards [0.3] and you can go and sign up [1.9] er [1.3] on the back of 
er [0.4] that er page with the information about the seminar [0.5] is er a 
couple of extracts from poems by Lord Byron [0.9] which you can enjoy in your 
own time [2.0] but the verses just er at the bottom of that page from the a 
poem called the Curse of Minerva [0.5] are a suitable introduction to this 
phase in the story of the Acropolis [0.2] and the reception of the Parthenon [0.
9] daughter of Jove in Britain's injured name [0.3] a true born Briton may the 
deed disclaim [0.7] frown not on England [0.5] England owns him not [0.3] 
Athena no [0.3] thy plunderer was a Scot [1.1] now those are not Byron's er 
best verses [1.2] but they are a suitable start [0.4] because the Scottish 
plunderer of course is Lord Elgin [0.9] and [0.2] er the plunder was the 
sculptures of the Parthenon [0.4] and this is the controversy that still rages 
today that you'll be looking at in some detail [0.2] you'll be looking at the 
contemporary controversy [0.4] in next week's seminars [1.3] the sorts of 
arguments that you'll be examining 
looking at [0.5] er [0.3] er the [0.5] er [0.6] contemporary er [0.2] polemics 
[0.5] er [1.1] in most cases they have their origins right here [0.2] at the 
start of the nineteenth century [2.6] er [3.0] we left the Parthenon er last 
time in sixteen-eighty-seven [0.5] with the huge hole in the middle of it if 
you remember [0.4] in sixteen-eighty-seven shortly after the sculptures had 
been drawn by Jacques Carrey [0.6] er the Parthenon was destroyed in the 
Venetian bombardment of the Acropolis [0.5] the Acropolis was a fortress [0.2] 
ammunition was stored on it [0.3] it was bombarded [0.3] and the Parthenon 
which miraculously had [0.3] remained intact up until that stage because [0.2] 
it had [0.4] er constantly been used [0.4] er [0.3] er [0.3] really [1.2] 
became the sort of ruin that we recognize today [1.5] between then between the 
end of the seventeenth century and eighteen-hundred [0.5] there had been 
several attempts by westerners western Europeans [0.4] to remove little bits 
and pieces of the sculpture from the site [0.3] er and from the building itself 
[0.8] and [1.0] er we think of the Parthenon sculptures as being mainly in the 
British 
Museum but there are little bits and pieces [0.4] i-, in Paris and Copenhagen 
[0.6] er in Vienna [0.2] er and Rome and elsewhere [1.7] nevertheless the 
sculptures of the Parthenon had remained largely intact [0.5] er up until [0.3] 
er [0.2] the [0.2] start of the nineteenth century [2.4] in spite of this [0.5] 
er i've said before in the two introductory lectures on the reception of 
classical art and er of architecture [0.6] er i said that the eighteenth 
century [0.3] er saw an increased understanding of the difference between Roman 
and Greek art [1.2] and an increased interest in imitating [0.2] specifically 
[0.2] classical Greek models rather than just [0.4] generally [0.2] the 
sculpture or architecture of the ancients [1.6] er so [0.4] er though the 
sculptures of the Parthenon er remained largely intact in the eighteenth 
century [0.5] they were becoming increasingly well known [0.9] people [0.4] to 
er [0.4] a greater extent were aware that this was a real site that existed in 
contemporary Greece [0.2] rather than just a famous temple mentioned [0.3] in 
ancient literary sources [2.2] now in seventeen-ninety-nine [0.6] er Lord 
Elgin [0.7] was appointed as [0.2] er ambassador to the court of the Ottoman 
Empire [2.1] and he took this opportunity of his [0.4] dispatch to er [0.4] 
Constantinople to Istanbul [1.7] to [0.2] er [1.4] obtain permission [0.6] er 
[0.3] for his agents to do some limited work on the site of the Acropolis [2.0] 
he was allowed in er a document called a firman [0.3] which is a was an Ottoman 
[0.3] a sort of permit to do er to granting certain favours [0.6] er to 
outsiders [0.2] he was granted this permission to do [0.9] er limited [0.9] 
excavation in a sense not excavation [0.3] er er in in the modern sense [0.5] 
er but retrieve some of the sculptures from the site [0.3] and to draw and copy 
[0.3] and study [0.4] er the sculptures of the Parthenon [1.7] now today 
there's controversy over what exactly that permission involved [0.4] just what 
sort of legal right [0.3] even in the terms of [0.4] er the Ottoman Empire [0.
3] Lord Elgin had [0.3] er [0.3] to do what he did [1.7] but [0.6] from any 
point of view there's no doubt that he [0.2] er interpreted [0.4] er his 
permission [0.4] er [0.2] broadly [1.6] and before he'd even set foot in Athens 
which he did briefly in eighteen-o-two [1.1] his men had begun the 
process [0.3] of removing everything that wasn't er [0.2] attached to the 
building [0.4] and er [0.2] nearly everything that was [1.7] in removing these 
sculptures from the temple [0.6] the sculptures which were an integral part of 
the building [0.4] not just decorations stuck on the outside [1.0] Lord Elgin's 
men caused considerable damage to the building [2.9] in his absence his agents 
shipped these sculptures [0.4] [laugh] [2.5] in his absence this er agents 
shipped these sculptures back to er back to England [0.6] and they included 
well things you've seen before [0.4] that should be [0.6] er quite familiar [0.
5] er [0.4] fifty slabs representing fifty separate slabs [0.3] er representing 
the Parthenon frieze [1.8] er [1.0] that's one of the individual slabs here er 
[3.4] er and then a little drawing as you saw before reconstructing the sort of 
view from the ground as you look at the frieze [0.3] in situ up inside the 
colonnade of the Parthenon [1.9] the sides of the frieze er he [0.2] retrieved 
fifteen of the metopes the [0.7] high relief sculptures from the outside of the 
temple [0.9] [0.5] most of the the best preserved ones 
representing the battle between the Lapiths and the Centaurs [2.7] and you 
removed [0.2] er what was left of the [0.2] er [1.0] pedimental sculptures from 
the gables at each end [0.5] er of the temple [0.9] er [2.0] these are [0.7] 
what's left of the er [1.1] of the east pediment in the British Museum [0.7] 
representing the birth of Athene [1.1] these had already been damaged in the 
course of the eighteenth century by previous attempts to remove bits and pieces 
[0.4] er individual [0.2] figures from the pedimental sculptures had been 
removed and there'd been [0.3] a Venetian attempt to remove quite a lot so 
they'd been damaged [0.3] before Lord Elgin came along [0.6] and just to give 
you some idea of their state before the Venetian bombardment in sixteen-
eighteen-seven [0.7] these are er Jacques Carrey's drawings [0.4] er of [0.2] 
er the er [0.2] the west pediment [0.2] representing the struggle between [0.2] 
Athene and Poseidon [2.6] so most of this material brought back to the British 
Museum [0.3] er and that's where it is now of course how many of you [0.6] how 
many of you have seen the Elgin Marbles in the British Museum [1.6] 
nearly everybody [0.9] the rest of you probably have without remembering 
anything about it [0.4] it's not far away so next time you're in London take [0.
4] take er [0.8] take the opportunity to go and look at them and also think 
about the way they're displayed in the British Museum [0.6] which is quite 
interesting what it implies [0.3] about the nineteenth century [0.3] view [0.3] 
er of what these sculptures are and why they're important [1.4] you'll also 
notice in the British Museum [0.5] just [0.2] to one in one of the smaller 
galleries off to one side [0.3] partly in response to the contemporary [0.3] 
controversy [0.2] the Greek demands for the return of the Elgin Marbles [0.5] 
er there are new displays which put much more emphasis on the original context 
of the sculptures [0.3] and what sort of role they had on the temple itself [4.
8] er Elgin also removed other bits and pieces from the Acropolis er including 
[0.2] you know one of the caryatids one of the architectural [0.4] er female 
figures from the Erectheum [0.6] which if you remember [0.2] on the plan was 
next to [0.3] er [0.3] next to the 
Parthenon [1.5] well there's no doubt that Elgin was acting from personal [0.2] 
er from motives of personal gain he wanted these sculptures [0.5] er [0.2] as 
[0.4] as many other aristocrats in that period wanted classical sculptures [0.
2] as the suitable cultivated adornments for his home [0.9] these sculptures 
were exceptional [0.5] they were [0.4] beyond the means of most aristocratic 
collectors in this period [0.4] but it's the same kind of thing he wanted them 
[0.4] er as [0.3] er the suitable adornments of his er [0.5] s-, specifically 
of the property he was building in Scotland [3.4] it may or may not be true 
what he later claimed that he was bringing these things back and his drawings 
and plaster casts as well [0.4] for the s-, [0.2] for the good of the arts and 
crafts of Britain [0.5] that these things were going to be a sort of inspiring 
example [0.3] to nineteenth century [0.3] er British designers and artists [0.
6] er i suppose it's really fair to say that those two motives were rather 
blurred in Elgin's own mind [0.9] er as well as some of his supporters [3.8] 
now it's [0.2] very easy especially in light of the contemporary debate and our 
attitudes to [0.4] er the plundering [0.3] of cultural heritage [0.4] to 
condemn Lord Elgin [2.3] er there's a book which you will look at you should 
look at especially if you're answering [0.3] er if you're writing an essay on 
[0.2] er the Elgin controversy [0.5] which is this book by Christopher Hitchens 
[0.3] which is on your general bibliography [0.5] er and and today's handout as 
well [0.3] The Elgin Marbles Should They Be Returned To Greece [1.5] if you see 
a book with a title like that you know that it's not he's not genuinely asking 
that [0.3] question [0.2] and that what he really means is [0.2] the Elgin 
Marbles why they should be returned to Greece [0.3] it's a very polemical book 
it's a political tract [0.8] er [0.7] it's [0.6] factually wrong in many places 
[0.4] it's [0.2] er it twists the er historical evidence [0.5] er it's very [0.
2] er rhetorical [0.3] last year i devoted a whole lecture to analysing the 
rhetoric [0.6] er which he uses to put his point across [0.4] not time to do 
that this year [0.2] but it would be good if you [0.3] er have a look at that 
[1.6] 
anyway er Hitchens is er obviously very hostile to Elgin [1.2] and he sees him 
as a sort of grasping hypocrite [1.1] er totally unscrupulous [1.3] and he 
finds it deeply ironic that Lord Elgin and his contemporaries [0.2] his 
associates [0.3] could talk about er Napoleon's [0.4] plundering of Italy at 
that time [0.4] Napoleon [0.2] taking [0.3] paintings and sculptures from Italy 
back to France [0.8] er and and even Elgin and and his er friends could compare 
their own [0.5] er depredations with those of [0.2] er Napoleon [0.4] and yet 
they didn't see anything wrong in what they were doing [1.4] Napoleon's actions 
were [0.2] self-evidently wrong he was [0.2] plundering these cultural 
treasures of Italy [1.2] there was nothing wrong with what Elgin was doing [1.
4] and i think to understand that apparent er double [0.9] double standard [0.
9] er [1.4] we have to remember that the er [0.2] the [2.8] there's a kind of 
er difference [0.7] in the way that er western Europe and its cultural 
treasures would have been viewed [0.9] a-, a-, and and the way in which the the 
r-, er ancient ruins of of Greece would have 
been viewed just at that period [0.7] we've a very clear idea of cultural 
treasures of cultural heritage [0.6] but in that period [0.3] there was a 
difference in i-, in people's minds between the plundering of the galleries of 
the established states of western Europe [0.6] and the recovering [0.2] of 
outdoor ruins [0.2] from a small fortress settlement [0.3] on the very edge of 
the Ottoman Empire [0.3] which is what Athens was [0.4] er in that period [2.7] 
having said that [0.3] there is er an inconsistency a deep tension [0.4] in the 
way [0.3] in which Elgin and his like-minded contemporaries were thinking [2.0] 
they [0.2] clearly recognized the documents show that they clearly recognized 
[1.0] er [0.2] Elgin's enemies recognized that [0.2] er [0.7] hi-, the way that 
he went about recovering these sculptures was clumsy [0.5] and self-interested 
[0.7] and it resulted in the demolition of a well preserved and [0.2] and well 
known classical monument [0.9] Elgin was much criticized in his own time as 
we'll see [2.7] on the other hand [1.0] you could easily argue that he was just 
doing on a grander scale [0.4] what [0.3] er [1.0] 
other aristocrats from Britain and and western European countries [0.2] were 
doing [0.3] in the the [0.2] late eighteenth and early nineteenth century [1.7] 
and the British Museum [0.4] is full of [0.2] er [0.2] monuments that [0.2] 
were brought back from Turkey and Greece [0.3] and other countries [0.4] in a 
time when really the-, there didn't seem to be anything [0.4] er [0.3] wrong 
with [0.2] er [1.8] in a sense recovering these [0.3] outdoor remains for 
civilization [2.2] so in that sort of tension between the criticism of Elgin [0.
3] er [0.2] the the er [0.2] er [1.0] er near acceptability of what he was 
doing [0.5] you can see that [0.9] really att-, er contemporary attitudes are 
[0.2] wavering [0.3] between those two extremes [0.9] we're on the er the edge 
[0.5] of acceptability [0.2] and unacceptability [2.1] it didn't take long for 
that balance to tip one way [1.0] so we do very quickly have [0.4] outspoken [0.
7] romantic [0.3] nationalist attacks on Elgin [0.2] from people like Byron and 
Byron is the most outspoken of all [1.0] who have already developed a clear 
idea of Greece [0.4] as a distinct modern nation [0.3] with its own special 
cultural 
heritage [2.1] now we should find that attitude [0.8] rather surprising [0.9] 
in this period [0.2] remember that Greece doesn't exist at this time [0.7] the 
state of Greece doesn't exist and had never existed [0.4] at the start of the 
nineteenth century [2.0] it had existed in a sense as a province of the Roman 
Empire [1.9] but it's [0.2] a few years after this in the eighteen-twenties 
that er Greece won its independence and became [0.3] a nation state [1.8] so in 
a sense Byron's er attitudes his idea of the [0.3] Greek nation [0.2] and its 
er [0.2] spiritual property [0.4] i-, is a a rather novel one [0.9] today [0.6] 
those sorts of sentiments are er perfectly familiar to us [4.4] still we should 
bear in mind the ambiguities of the time [0.6] and these are particularly clear 
if you [0.2] er if for example when you start to look at the letters [0.6] 
exchanged between [0.4] er the the painter called er Lusieri [0.3] who was or-, 
er Elgin's er agent that's L-U-S- [0.3] I-E-R-I [1.4] he was in charge of 
Elgin's operations on the ground in Athens [0.6] er if you look at his letters 
to his patron [1.7] er [2.4] it's quite interesting it's almost a 
sort of matter of fact almost an innocent [0.2] attitude [0.3] to what they 
were doing [0.7] which in retrospact [0.2] er in retrospect appears absolutely 
outrageous [0.3] and er Christopher Hitchens represents Lusieri [0.4] er and 
his colleagues as being [0.2] s-, er sort of [0.5] er [0.4] er [0.5] greedy 
psychopaths [0.4] er there's one extract from a letter in eighteen-o-one which 
Hitchens makes much of [1.2] about the er er er in eighteen-o-one [0.3] the 
they Elgin's people were just beginning to remove some of the larger sculptures 
from the Parthenon [0.6] and Lusieri writes to him and says [1.4] i hope that 
no further difficulties will be raised [0.2] as to continuing the diggings at 
the Temple of Minerva [0.6] er the Temple of Athene that is the Parthenon [0.7] 
and i shall be able to get possession of all the fragments i find [1.8] Mr Hunt 
another of Elgin's er employees [0.3] Mr Hunt wrote to Your excellen-, 
Excellency on my behalf [0.3] to send a dozen marble saws of different sizes [0.
2] to Athens [0.2] as quickly as possible [0.9] i should require three or four 
twenty feet in length [0.4] to saw a great bas-relief [0.6] 
that we could not transport unless we reduce its height [0.9] he's actually 
talking about the centre of the east frieze of the Parthenon [0.4] it's such a 
lovely idea that they had this practical problem we-, [0.3] oh take ten 
centimetres off the top and then it'll work [0.8] but it is al-, an almost 
innocent attitude he doesn't seem at all aware [0.4] that there would be any 
criticism of what he's doing [0.5] he has a task to perform [0.3] and he's 
doing it [0.4] in [0.2] a a a matter of fact way [2.6] well the work went on in 
Elgin's absence for several years [1.1] and in fact Lusieri was there still [0.
7] oh er [0.3] fifteen years after the removal of sculptures ended [0.2] still 
drawing things and and doing bits and pieces of work for Elgin [3.7] returning 
from his post in the Ottoman Empire [0.5] er Elgin's fortunes [0.5] started [0.
3] to take a turn for the worse [0.7] his life fell to pieces in fact [0.5] he 
was kidnapped [0.2] he was taken hostage by the French on his way home [0.9] 
and held for i think it was three years [0.5] as a as a hostage [1.6] er [1.6] 
this [0.2] er is the period of the 
Napoleonic Wars Napoleon's France is at war with Britain [1.8] er [0.3] while 
he's er detained and his wife his wife left him ran off with his next-door 
neighbour in Scotland [1.2] and his fortunes were dissolving [1.1] and he'd 
spent something it's a little bit unclear but maybe something like seventy or 
eighty-thousand pounds [0.5] on his operations in the Acropolis [0.7] you 
imagine what that is in modern terms we're talking about many millions of 
pounds i suspect [1.2] he'd spent a fortune [0.9] and he really returned er to 
Britain [0.6] er [0.8] maybe penniless isn't the right word [0.4] er for 
somebody who had properties in London and Scotland but he [0.3] er h-, h-, his 
fortune [0.2] er had been lost [1.8] so by eighteen-ten he's abandoned his 
original plan of [0.4] keeping the sculptures [0.8] er [0.3] displaying them in 
his er [0.2] home in Scotland [0.3] he's abandoned his fallback plan of er [0.
2] er displaying them at in his house in London and allowing paying visitors to 
view them [0.5] not going to make enough money from the entrance fees [0.7] so 
in eighteen-ten he starts 
negotiations [0.3] to sell these sculptures to the British Museum [0.7] that is 
to say to the British state [0.4] er [0.8] to give them to the British Museum 
for safe keeping [2.2] he wanted something like seventy or eighty-thousand 
pounds to cover his expenses [0.5] course he was aiming high [0.3] in the 
expectation [0.3] that he wouldn't get that much [0.6] but er he he was offered 
[0.8] well initially thirty-thousand pounds and then finally thirty-five-
thousand pounds [2.8] 
maybe half what he'd spent acquiring these things in the first place [1.8] and 
there was much opposition [0.2] to the state's purchase of these sculptures at 
a time of war [1.3] but finally after a series er of discussions in the House 
of Commons through eighteen-fifteen and eighteen-sixteen [0.8] er the er 
Parliament agreed in eighteen-sixteen [0.2] to to pay [0.3] er Elgin [0.4] er 
for the marbles and to deposit them in the British Museum [0.4] and that's 
where they have been ever since [2.0] once again [0.4] these debates these 
parliamentary debates [0.4] which are represented [0.3] er lot of the documents 
are in Hitchens' book but i've put extracts in your handout [0.6] these [0.8] 
arguments are really the basis of the er contemporary controversy and you'll 
see the same sorts of arguments [0.7] er [0.3] in [0.5] you know the second 
decade of the nineteenth century [0.3] as you'll find once you start to look in 
the internet [0.4] for [0.2] er [0.4] er arguments in the nineteen-nineties [3.
4] well [2.3] despite this consistency [0.2] in the nature of the debate and 
the nature of the 
controversy over two centuries [0.8] there was another controversy in Elgin's 
own time which may appear more surprising to us [1.5] and that is the [0.8] 
contemporary aesthetic attitudes [0.2] to the Elgin marbles [0.3] the way in 
which people responded to them as ancient art [0.5] at the beginning of the 
nineteenth century [4.3] individually [0.4] some Greek sculptures had been 
admired appreciated since the seventeenth century or before [1.3] certainly 
Roman copies er of [0.2] Greek sculptures or [0.3] versions of the [0.3] er 
recreations of the style of Greek sculpture [0.5] er had been admired and 
collected for a long time [1.3] but really [0.3] there had been very little [0.
3] public demonstration of what Greek what real [0.2] classical Greek 
sculptures looked like [1.5] people had an idea of what classical sculpture 
looked like [0.3] which was especially built on on later Hellenistic and Roman 
[0.3] er works [2.2] and this is a period when as i've said before Greece was 
[0.2] just becoming more accessible to western Europe [0.9] with the products 
[0.3] and er well the the er relics of Greece were just 
becoming [0.3] er better known [0.6] er [0.2] to collectors in the west [1.9] 
we looked before at the er realization that Greek vases came from Athens and 
not from Italy [0.6] er [0.2] from about the middle of the eighteenth century 
[2.0] er [0.2] as a result of this people weren't quite ready for what they f-, 
[0.3] saw in the Elgin marbles [0.5] and while er w-, some people had their 
breath taken away by these sculptures [0.6] and thought they were the most 
wonderful works of art [0.2] that had been seen [0.3] in western Europe [1.0] 
but others were [0.4] rather shocked and surprised by what they found [0.7] er 
they saw sculptures which were [0.9] very realistic in some respects that paid 
[0.2] close attention to details of anantomy [0.8] including the veins and 
individual muscles in the body [1.2] er [0.5] less idealized in that sense than 
[0.3] some [0.2] of the freestanding sculptures that had been known up until 
then [1.4] they saw [0.2] sculptures that had hints of facial expression [0.7] 
figures expressing emotion rather than just having blank classical faces [0.9] 
and bodies engaged in lively action [0.3] twisting around [0.6] er 
dynamic figures very unlike the still [0.2] impassive [0.5] er [0.2] Greco-
Roman sculptures that had been so much admired in the eighteenth century [3.5] 
and there was one particular [0.5] critic [0.3] who [0.2] dealt a serious blow 
to Elgin's [0.6] er [0.5] his [0.3] claim for for money and and er his his 
attempt to [0.4] er get the importance of the sculptures recognized in Britain 
[0.5] that was a figure [0.3] called Richard Payne Knight [2.0] now Richard 
Payne Knight [1.3] nowadays you'd call him a classicist he's [0.5] er [0.6] 
quite well known for translating er some obscene Latin poems [0.4] er called 
the er the Priapic Songs [0.5] er [0.3] but better known as a connoisseur of 
art he's a leading figure [0.4] in an organization called the Society of 
Dilettante [1.3] the Society of Dilettante still exists [0.4] if any of you [0.
4] want some money to go on holiday to Greece you should look out on the 
noticeboard in the corridor and they sometimes send [0.4] out the 
advertisements [0.4] for the er you know they give awards for pe-, er 
undergraduates to go and study sculpture in Greece [1.5] er the Society of 
Dilettante 
was a society a sort of gentlemen's society [0.5] er [0.7] er of connoisseurs 
[0.2] scholars of ancient art [0.7] er and [1.3] it doesn't [0.2] quite have 
the sort of amateur associations [0.7] that [1.2] the n-, the the name might 
suggest today [0.4] they sponsored a lot of very serious [0.3] er scientific 
study [0.3] of ancient sculptures [0.7] so Richard Payne Knight was a leading 
figure in this organization [0.3] and a kind of expert witness gave evidence to 
Parliament [0.5] on the er value of the sculptures [0.6] and he had a 
devastating judgement of them [1.5] he said [0.7] that far from being works of 
the greatest sculptors of the high classical period [0.4] in the fifth century 
B-C [1.0] these sculptures that Elgin had brought back [0.9] had been made in 
the reign of the Emperor Hadrian [0.6] in the first half of the second century 
A-D [2.6] now Christopher Hitchens [0.4] talking about this argument [0.3] 
thinks it's absolutely ridiculous he calls Richard Payne Knight a buffoon [1.1] 
and says that this suggestion [0.3] that the sculptures are Hadrianic is 
absolutely ridiculous [1.0] and taking [0.5] taking their cue [0.3] er 
from Hitchens [0.8] everybody who wrote an essay on this subject last year [0.
3] said [0.5] er Richard Payne Knight thought the sculptures were Hadrianic er 
wasn't that ridiculous [2.3] and i'm sure that some of you will try and do the 
same thing this year as well [0.3] and i felt very sorry for Payne Knight [0.5] 
when i was reading the essays last year [0.9] because [2.7] even today [0.2] i 
bet if i i i could show you a picture [0.4] of a fifth century B-C sculpture [0.
4] and a Hadrianic sculpture [0.6] er and you wouldn't be able to tell the 
difference between them [0.6] i bet i could choose examples [0.4] that would [0.
4] er [0.5] er [0.9] you you'd find difficult to tell apart [0.7] there are 
differences but they're subtle differences [0.4] and even today generally with 
the dating of ancient sculpture [0.3] we sometimes have [0.4] great difficulty 
[1.2] our judgements tend to be based on style [0.8] and the age of Hadrian was 
a period in which [0.2] classical Greek sculpture was much [0.5] imitated [1.4] 
er so imagine the early nineteenth century imagine a period when people are 
only just beginning to try and [0.3] impose [0.3] some sort 
of historical chronological framework [0.3] on this mass of [0.2] bits and 
pieces of diverse sculpture [0.6] from Greece and Rome [0.9] how on earth [0.3] 
would you be able to tell [0.3] the difference [0.2] between [0.2] the [0.2] 
fifth century material and Hadrianic material [1.7] the fact that these things 
were found on the Parthenon is suggestive i admit [0.6] but there are other 
monuments in Greece [0.2] famous temples [0.3] which had been restored in Roman 
[0.3] in the Roman period and had later sculptures on them [0.3] so it's not an 
absurd suggestion [0.2] at all [1.5] i-, it has to be admitted it wasn't [0.2] 
the er opinion of most people in this period [2.1] but even without Payne 
Knight's specific controversial judgement [0.5] there was [0.3] er on the part 
of many people [0.7] er at the start of the nineteenth century [0.5] er [0.3] a 
feeling of [0.3] er [1.8] a bit people felt uncomfortable [0.4] about the er [0.
5] form [0.3] of the Elgin marbles [0.4] er which defied their expectations [0.
2] of classical art [0.4] in the neoclassical period [3.3] well the upshot of 
all this [0.3] is that [1.3] there are really two lessons from the material 
we've 
looked at [2.3] firstly this is a period of flux [1.7] we've seen that er 
attitudes were er to the nation [0.5] and to [0.2] cultural heritage were 
changing [1.7] ideas like those expressed by Byron were just starting to emerge 
[1.5] we'll look at that [0.3] m-, more er er in the next lecture [0.9] but 
besides that [0.4] classical studies [0.2] classical art history classical [0.
2] archaeology [1.1] are are beginning to take form in somethi-, er something 
[0.2] like [0.2] the the the the the form we see them today [2.2] things that 
we take for granted ideas and assumptions that we take for granted are just 
starting [0.3] to take shape [0.4] in classical scholarship [4.7] 
the second thing is [2.6] that [0.6] if you look at [0.2] er [0.2] h-, [0.2] 
Hitchens' particular objections [1.0] er to Lord Elgin's action and hi-, his 
argument for the return of the Elgin marbles [0.9] they are ultimately 
underpinned [0.7] by his own [0.3] personal [0.2] passion [0.5] for the what he 
sees as the sublime artistic achievement [0.4] represented by the sculptures in 
the Parthenon [5.1] because he has that assumption 'cause his argument his 
political argument depends on it [1.1] it is unthinkable that the [0.2] er 
classic quality he observes in these sculptures [0.3] might not be 
instinctively [0.3] evident to everybody [1.7] it's out of the question as far 
as Hitchens is concerned [0.2] that anyone might have an alternative view of 
the Elgin marbles [0.4] and for that reason [0.2] he has to devote special 
effort to rubbishing Payne Knight [0.6] or any other [0.3] er aesthetic criti-, 
critics [0.2] of the Elgin marbles [0.4] er from er Elgin's own period [1.5] 
what Hitchens is doing [0.3] is really [0.3] er what what many of us are 
doing [0.2] all the time [0.3] we're looking back on [0.2] er [0.5] recent 
history of the reception [0.3] of the this material [0.4] er and on the 
classical past [0.9] er [0.7] from a position of knowledge [0.2] and we're 
secure [0.8] in [0.5] our assumptions [0.3] and our expectations [0.7] and our 
prejudices about the classical past and what it [0.3] what what its 
significance is today [1.3] so our er everything we look at in the past [0.3] 
is orientated towards our own contemporary standpoint [1.4] you look at a 
polemical tract like Hitchens and that becomes particularly clear [0.4] but i 
think it's part of what we're all doing [3.4] another point worth making is [0.
8] in this [0.2] er particular respect [0.6] is [0.4] er [2.2] Hitchens' 
attitude to the er [0.4] to the creator of the Parthenon sculptures [0.5] if 
you look at the the blurb on the back of his book [1.4] it begins [0.3] the 
Elgin marbles designed and executed by Phidias to adorn the Parthenon [0.2] are 
some of the most beautiful sculptures of Ancient Greece [3.1] and that's his 
first factual mistake [0.3] that these sculptures were made by Phidias [1.8] 
we're told by ancient sources that 
Phidias [0.6] was [0.5] in some sense responsible for the sculptures of the 
Parthenon [0.9] he couldn't have been [0.3] actively involved in the production 
of all of them [0.6] er it's usually thought that he had some sort of role as a 
supervisor [2.5] nevertheless we know that Phidias was the most great the the 
the greatest er most famous er sculpture of the classical wor-, er er sculptor 
of the classical world [0.4] er Roman sources [0.3] er always cite him as the 
example of a classical [0.3] er sculptor he's a bit like Michelangelo in more 
recent centuries th-, the most famous [0.3] figure of all [0.2] in the history 
of classical art [0.5] and so Hitchens and [0.5] many with similar views [0.2] 
latch on to that supposed [0.4] association [0.3] between Phidias and the 
Parthenon sculptures [0.6] er [1.0] to er demonstrate [0.5] er that er [0.5] 
the the these works are er [1.3] self-evidently [0.6] er [0.3] the the er er s-,
sometimes called the crown jewels of Greece [0.7] something of er [0.4] er 
exceptional [0.3] er importance has cultural heritage not just like anything 
else that w-, may have been [0.4] er removed from Greece or other countries [0.
2] 
but something special [0.9] er that er deserves [0.2] er exceptional treatment 
[1.5] but do take an opportunity at some stage to look at his arguments and the 
way he manipulates that sort of [0.4] er historical material [0.5] er to serve 
his own arguments [2.0] er [1.3] well [0.3] i i do before i finish i want to i 
want to [0.2] er discuss what you're doing for the seminar but in the last er 
ten minutes or so before that [0.4] i wanted to [0.4] er look a little bit at 
the extracts you have in your handout [1.4] and [0.4] to point out some 
features of er there's interesting features of the [0.3] the form the debate 
was taking [0.4] er at the time when Elgin was trying to sell [0.2] these 
sculptures [0.2] to the state [1.8] i'll not read all of this you can y-, you 
should read them in your own time and think about them [0.6] but there are one 
or two bits i wanted to er pay [0.5] particular attention to [2.5] er [0.5] 
first of all if you look under A on the first page of your handout [4.4] 
om0006: thanks very much [1.2] 
nm0005: er [0.2] if you look under A there er the-, these are the minutes of 
the er Parliamentary debate well of the last Parliamentary debate that occurred 
in June [0.5] of eighteen-sixteen [0.8] er [0.4] trying to decide whether 
Parliament [0.2] should er er pay [0.4] er thirty-five-thousand pounds to Elgin 
for these sculptures [2.0] you see right at the beginning Mr Hammersley [1.3] 
Member of Parliament Mr Hammersley [1.0] he said he should oppose the 
resolution [0.2] on the ground of the dishonesty of the transaction by which 
the collection was obtained [1.4] as to the value of the statues [0.3] he was 
inclined to go as far as the honourable mover [0.8] person [0.3] proposing the 
motion [0.2] that er Elgin should be paid [1.1] but he was not so enamoured of 
those headless ladies as to forget another lady [0.2] which was justice [0.8] 
er [0.2] standards of [0.2] of [0.3] rhetoric in Parliament haven't improved [1.
0] er [1.9] so that's er [0.9] would [0.2] seem the beginning of the sort of 
argument that's used today that er er e-, Elgin er [0.4] was acting er [0.2] er 
[0.2] dishonestly [0.6] er [1.3] effectively bribing the officials in Athens [0.
4] er and exploiting his position [1.3] but then the next bit is particularly 
[0.3] er interesting to us [1.0] if a restitution of these marbles was demanded 
from this country [0.8] 
was it supposed that our title to them could be supported on the vague words of 
the firman [0.6] which only gave authority to remove some small pieces of stone 
[1.3] it was well known th-, that the empress Catharine [0.6] the empress 
Catharine of Russia [0.4] had entertained the idea of establishing the Archduke 
Constantine in Greece [0.8] setting up a monarchy in Greece [1.3] if the 
project of that extraordinary woman should ever be accomplished and Greece 
ranked among independent nations [0.3] with what feelings would she contemplate 
the people who had stripped from this celebrated temple [0.3] of its noblest 
ornaments [1.7] now that [0.6] too seems like a very modern argument [1.4] the 
idea that [0.2] you know that er Greece might [0.3] one day call for these 
things to be returned [0.5] er and er that er [1.0] er there would be ill 
feeling because Britain had had robbed that nation [0.3] of its most treasured 
cultural [0.6] possessions [0.3] so superficially it looks like a modern 
argument [0.5] but then think again about the terms in which it's presented [1.
3] it is not [0.4] he 
doesn't say [1.0] maybe in er [0.6] five years time [0.4] er there will be a 
Greek revolution [0.3] and Greece will become a nation state [0.3] and the 
Greek people [0.2] will want their cer-, er their cultural heritage back as a 
symbol of their newly founded nation [0.6] er and then [0.3] we should er be [0.
4] er feel guilty that we have this material [0.3] he doesn't say that [0.4] he 
assumes that Greece becoming a nation [0.6] depends [0.3] on the 
establishment of a monarchy [0.2] from outside [1.2] which effectively is what 
happened [2.1] so it's not quite [0.5] even a n-, [0.3] nationalist conception 
of Greece that's represented by Byron [0.8] there's still this [0.2] deeply 
ingrained assumption [0.3] that [0.2] at the moment Greece isn't like the 
states of western Europe [0.9] but if it did become like that [0.2] it would be 
dependent on it having er er [0.4] a monarchy [0.4] er [0.5] er established 
from outside [1.0] nothing about the Greek people or their [0.3] nationalist 
sentiments [2.4] well Mr Hammersley goes on to er talk about the er [0.7] you 
know the question of whether the Turks the Ottoman Turks occupying Athens [0.3] 
er value these pieces whether 
it was true [0.4] er that they didn't care about them [0.4] so that Elgin was 
justified in removing [0.4] er [0.3] things that literally have no value [1.4] 
er [1.6] he er [1.9] goes on to suggest that er [0.5] Elgin's marb-, er Elgin's 
er agents used er bribery [0.4] to obtain this material [1.4] er [1.7] six 
lines down on the seven lines down on the third column of page one you see [0.
5] er he he he uses the word spoliation [1.5] very emotive word still used 
today [0.6] er by critics of Elgin [1.5] and then he proposes [0.4] er an 
amendment [0.5] to the [0.2] er to the er bill that's being discussed [2.4] and 
[0.2] er [1.2] the s-, really significant bit of this amendment is the last bit 
just down towards the bottom [0.3] bottom right hand [0.2] er corner of your [0.
2] page one [3.4] this this is part of his amendment this wasn't passed [0.8] 
this committee therefore feels justified under the particular circumstances of 
the case [0.3] in recommending that twenty-five-thousand pounds be offered to 
the Earl of Elgin for the collection [0.3] in order to recover and keep it 
together for that government [0.3] from which it has been improperly taken [2.
4] 
and to which this committee is of the opinion [0.7] that a communication should 
be immediately made [0.6] stating [0.3] that Great Britain holds these marbles 
[0.3] only in trust [0.5] till they're demanded by the present or any future 
possessors of the city of Athens [1.0] and upon such demand engages without 
question or negotiation [0.4] to restore them [0.4] as far as can be effected 
[0.3] to the places from whence they were taken [0.6] and that they shall be in 
the meantime carefully preserved in the British Museum [1.4] and once again 
he's not talking about the people of Greece [0.3] he's not talking about the 
Greek nation [0.3] he's talking about [0.2] the Turkish government [0.3] that's 
what he means by the government [0.3] of [0.5] er Athens [1.1] government of 
Greece [1.1] and [0.2] he [0.2] er [1.3] er [0.9] again alludes to the 
possibility that Greece may become er [0.3] er a sovereign state [0.2] but it's 
n-, not in any sense the the people would rise up [0.4] and and claim their 
cultural [0.2] er heritage [2.8] er [2.5] to summarize some of the other points 
made i-, in in the rest of page two of your handout [0.8] er under B Mr 
Croker [0.3] another Member of Parliament [1.1] er [1.8] he [0.2] er [0.5] 
thinks that this argument of Mr Hammersley's is ridiculous [0.2] the suggestion 
that we should be holding the sculptures in trust [0.3] until the Russians come 
along and take them [0.2] that's how he presents it [0.3] slightly distorting 
what [0.2] er Hammersley had said [1.4] er [0.6] he then er suggests that the 
er [0.2] the economic objections to buying the Elgin marbles [0.3] were 
unfounded [0.2] he thinks this is a good investment [0.3] and will i-, it'll 
have [0.2] tremendous impact on the [0.4] the art and industry of Britain [1.6] 
he says that when Pericles wanted to build the Parthenon [0.6] he was er er he 
faced objections from people who said it's a needless expense [0.7] er so er he 
[0.3] he compares their position [0.3] to Pericles [0.4] to his er [0.7] 
obviously no one would object to the Parthenon having been made in the first 
place [2.2] and er finally he says that there was no sign that Lord Elgin had 
shown any rapacity [1.4] er he had touched things he had he'd laid his hands on 
things which were already ruins [1.5] he didn't go to Greece 
with the intention of ravaging it [0.4] or despoiling its temples [0.4] he went 
with the highest motives [0.3] and has brought back material which will be of 
great benefit to his [0.2] nation [2.2] er he also uses the argument which is 
[0.2] still used today [0.2] that if the sculptures had stayed in the Parthenon 
[0.3] they would have been [0.2] er very quickly destroyed and he gives [0.3] e-
, rather dubious evidence for [0.4] er [0.2] er [0.2] the [0.4] the the the 
idea that er the local inhabitants of Athens were [0.4] er [0.7] er they're 
smashing up these sculptures and er [0.2] turning them into mortar and that 
sort of thing [0.2] clearly that was happening [0.4] but there's a little bit 
of doubt over the particular [0.5] er [0.5] er [0.4] pieces of evidence that he 
uses [2.2] er and then again the sentiments that he expresses er are er [0.2] 
echoed er in the final column there under C [0.5] right at the bottom [0.4] er 
[0.2] Mr Banks says that the most eminent artists had been consulted by the 
committee [0.5] by the select committee 
discussing the issue [0.8] er [1.9] he says that the sculptures by many were 
classed above and by others little below the highest works obtained since the 
restoration of art [0.5] since the Renaissance [0.9] er and er for forming a 
school of art [0.3] they were considered [0.2] as absolutely invaluable [0.3] 
so they'd be an inspiration to the current [0.4] neoclassical movement in art 
[2.6] so you can read through those for yourself and look at the details [0.4] 
and [0.4] really you'll see the whole repertoire of arguments that are still 
used today [2.0] er [0.8] don't rush off because we'll discuss the seminar [0.
4] er in the next lecture i will look a little bit more on the issues of of 
nationalism in Greece and the way in which archaeology was implicated [0.3] in 
the growth of the Greek state [0.3] as well as the actual impact that the er 
Elgin marbles did in fact have [0.3] on the art and architecture of Britain [1.
6] 
now very quickly your er [0.3] handout for the seminar [0.4] giving you your 
instructions [1.2] er [2.5] er i i no longer have a copy but [0.3] er [1.3] i 
[0.2] er if i recall i i'd asked you to do two things to look er for web sites 
[0.7] that [0.7] as well as the literature on your general bibliography [0.3] 
which will er [0.2] help you to work out what the arguments are [0.2] on both 
sides of the contemporary [0.3] er debate of the Elgin marbles [0.2] should 
they be returned to Greece [1.0] and of course [0.5] you can make up your own 
mind where you stand [0.2] for that argument [0.5] it's not really our purpose 
to [0.3] to f-, fight it out and come to a conclusion [1.0] er but [0.5] 
especially what i want you to do [0.2] is to find er a polemical web site you 
will find them [0.6] or if necessary to find some er er an article or a [0.4] 
or [1.1] er i-, i-, if you really can't cope with the er computers [0.3] er you 
could look at Hitchens' book [0.3] but find some sort of argument about the 
Elgin marbles today [0.8] and [0.9] analyse it think about how the er where the 
person's coming from [0.3] how they're pitching their arguments [0.4] er how 
they're er organizing their material [0.2] how they're organizing historical 
evidence [0.3] er to back up the particular [0.3] er ideas that they hold [1.1] 
er so that's the important thing not that you should come up with a view on the 
Elgin marbles [0.3] but that you should be able to analyse